Is God Three, or Two?

stranger said:

and no there is no evidence of any concept of 'trinity' in his work ... also he believed in salvation of all creation as does Jesus who never taught anything about trinity either and had quite a following :-

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I just did a quick scan of Origen and found that he used the term "Trinity" at least twenty times
This is the first mention.

ORIGEN DE PRINCIPIIS Book I [A.D. 185-254]
From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.​

As for your other assertions, prove it!

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

since there is no mention of such a concept , one can reasonably assume it is of no consequence , as indeed is obvious from the above logical analysis that it doesn't even make sense conceptually or scripturally ...

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Logical fallacy, argument from silence! The word Bible does not appear anywhere in scripture either.

I think the question was, can you show me any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for any organized body of believers who believed essentially as you do, between 90 AD, when the NT was completed, and the late 19th century when virtually all false religious groups came into existence, e.g. JW, LDS, pe-'89 WWCG, SDA, UU, OP, anti-Trin MJ, kristadelfian, etc?

Perhaps you can show me what use the concept is supposed to be, since the only uses I see are systematically unloving ... divisiveness and persecution ... perhaps that is a convincing proof of its fallacy, as Jesus commanded love and never used it ... ?

stranger said:

Perhaps you can show me what use the concept is supposed to be, since the only uses I see are systematically unloving ... divisiveness and persecution ... perhaps that is a convincing proof of its fallacy, as Jesus commanded love and never used it ... ?

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I note you have ignored most of my post where I pointed out that you made assertions which you did not, and evidently cannot, support.

There are many "concepts" of Jesus around. JWs say that Jesus is "a god." LDS say that Jesus is Satan's brother and their elder brother. Muslims say that Isa (Jesus) was only a lesser prophet, and that Muhammad is the greater prophet. I have posted sixty-two (62) scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God, yet Jesus himself said there is only one God.

My previous post, 36 N.T. verses which address or refer to Jesus as God

My previous post 26 O.T. verses which address YHWH, which refer to Jesus as God, in the N.T.

My previous posts, 4 N.T. verses which address or refer to the Holy Spirit, as God.

I note that you have ignored my question
[I admit that I was mistaken about Origen, sorry ]

Jesus stands at the right hand of God and still maintains there is only one God

I have no difficulty with that because the spirit is one and the mercy seat and cherubim are not idols to be worshipped, but merely symbols...

but why count one of the cherubs as a 'person' of God when there are four , and all manifest as 'persons' , as mortal men :-

Ezekiel 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man...

I do have a problem with folks counting things which are not in the same class , not counting all the things in all the different classes they are counting, and in counting some things twice...

But you do not get that , so I would let it pass, excepting that folks persecute and segregate other folks on basis of this which is logically nonsense...

By being unloving in applying this idea one is breaking the law of Jesus to love everyone , and the saints instruct one not to be unloving on basis of one's 'meat' ... it truly has to be very important to cause folks to disobey Jesus and the saints to maintain vehemently this logically nonsensical idea

So I ask again, what is so important about insisting God is three anything ,when we know He is one ?

If you care to explain what a 'person' of God is ,then I can show you the scripture that proves there are countless many such mentioned in scripture, vastly more than three ... so why would anyone even want to count them and why stop at three when there are so many more ?

...

stranger said:

[ . . . ]If you care to explain what a 'person' of God is ,then I can show you the scripture that proves there are countless many such mentioned in scripture, vastly more than three ... so why would anyone even want to count them and why stop at three when there are so many more ?

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How can you show me anything about something I have not explained yet?

Why won't you reply to the pont made ?

stranger said:

Why won't you reply to the pont made ?

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If you are talking to me, you made no point for me to reply to! You dismissed anything I might have said by saying, "If you care to explain what a 'person' of God is ,then I can show you the scripture that proves there are countless many such mentioned in scripture, vastly more than three . . ." Since you evidently can read my mind and know what I am going to say and assume you can refute it before I even say anything, what is there to reply to?

My previous post, 36 N.T. verses which address or refer to Jesus as God

My previous post 26 O.T. verses which address YHWH, which refer to Jesus as God, in the N.T.

My previous posts, 4 N.T. verses which address or refer to the Holy Spirit, as God.

I have referenced 62 scripture which address or refer to Jesus as God and 4 scripture which address or refer to the Holy Spirit as God.

Anti-Trinitarians teach that there is no Trinity, God is not Triune. However, Jesus said that, The Father; the Son, Jesus himself; and the Holy Spirit had separate and distinct “selves,” Jn 5:19, 20, 26; 16:13.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself [εαυτου]; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;​

In this verse, Joh 5:26, Jesus speaks of two separate and distinct “selves.” One “self,” the Father, gives to the other “self,” the Son.

G1438 εαυτου heautou heh-ow-too'

(Including all the other cases); from a reflexive pronoun otherwise obsolete and the genitive (dative or accusative) of G846; him (her, it, them, also [in conjunction with the personal pronoun of the other persons] my, thy, our, your) -self (-selves), etc.: - alone, her (own, -self), (he) himself, his (own), itself, one (to) another, our (thine) own (-selves), + that she had, their (own, own selves), (of) them (-selves), they, thyself, you, your (own, own conceits, own selves, -selves).​

Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.[/indent]
In this verse, Joh 16:27, Jesus again refers to the Father having a “self,” as distinct from Jesus.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he,the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself [εαυτου]; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

In this verse, Joh 16:13, Jesus clearly indicates that the Spirit has a “self,” using the same word, “himself,” He used to distinguish between, Jesus, himself, and the Father.

“Oneness,” and other anti-Trinitarians, teach that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but it is “the mind, energy, power, force, influence,” etc., of God or even “God himself. “ If that is true, in John 16:13,

1. Who does God, speak from if not from God?
2. Who does God, hear from if not from God?
3. Who tells God, of things to come in the future, if not God?

If the anti-Trinitarian doctrine is correct then the Christians at Ephesus did not know that God even had a spirit.

Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who [Christ] through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

The “self,” of Christ distinguished from “the eternal spirit,” and from “God.” And note the clear distinction of the Triune God, 1. the blood of Christ, 2. the eternal Spirit, and 3. the living God?

Does the word, himself somehow have a different meaning in this verse, than it does in John 5:26, which seems to have a different meaning in John 16:13, according to anti-Trinitarian teaching?

In the following verses Jesus uses the word himself to indicate one specific person as distinct from all other persons.

Does the word himself, when spoken by Jesus, somehow have a different meaning, in the following verses, than in John 5:26, and John 16:13?

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Mar 3:26 Luk 11:18

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. Luk 6:3 Luk 20:42

Luk 12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?​

The points you make are simply the restrictions of language ... much like referring to God as 'He' when obviously the spirit has no gender

The spirit is undivided, so we say it is One God , but we might do better to say God is whole , saying God is One is not a license for starting to count God

The spirit does not, cannot, change - it created time , is time-less then... so has no consciousness as we know it ... and life as we know it is temporary , based upon change, physical... nothing like the spirit ... but we say the spirit has life because it creates life...

again the creation of Jesus is much like the creation of Adam by the holy spirit and Jesus shows us love so we can say God is love, but only the living can love... the spirit can only love as mankind, not as spirit ... God has self only as Jesus and the saints when alive as humans beings ... but language uses poetic license to speak of God as having hands even when talking about the godhead long before Jesus was around...

One has then to understand the limitations of language , we really need different words for talking about the spirit ,but have none , so words about the physical world are squeezed to make metaphors about God... if one wants to count the metaphors then the answer isn't three, but I have no idea why anyone wants to, let alone why anyone wants to persecute others who see it is nonsense created by taking language too literally when it is being used beyond its literal limits to refer to the spirit.

So my question is WHY is it even vaguely important to insist God is three, what purpose does it serve ???

There are several reasons for my question, to do with scripture, but first I would like to see if you have any kind of answer

stranger said:

The points you make are simply the restrictions of language ... much like referring to God as 'He' when obviously the spirit has no gender

The spirit is undivided, so we say it is One God , but we might do better to say God is whole , saying God is One is not a license for starting to count God

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Since Jesus is God, he could have expressed anything he wanted to, to make it clear to anyone who heard or read it, despite any limitation of language. Therefore, unless the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit clearly state otherwise, or the context clearly makes it impractical, whenever they speak, the Father, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit mean what they say and say what they mean. Otherwise, anyone can make any verse say almost anything they want it to say. There have been many false teaching religious groups who do exactly that, e.g. JW, LDS, OP, UU, pre-89 WWCG, anti-Trin MJ, kristadelfian Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc.

The spirit does not, cannot, change - it created time , is time-less then... so has no consciousness as we know it ... and life as we know it is temporary , based upon change, physical... nothing like the spirit ... but we say the spirit has life because it creates life...
again the creation of Jesus is much like the creation of Adam by the holy spirit and Jesus shows us love so we can say God is love, but only the living can love... the spirit can only love as mankind, not as spirit ... God has self only as Jesus and the saints when alive as humans beings ... but language uses poetic license to speak of God as having hands even when talking about the godhead long before Jesus was around...

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Scripture please?

One has then to understand the limitations of language , we really need different words for talking about the spirit ,but have none , so words about the physical world are squeezed to make metaphors about God... if one wants to count the metaphors then the answer isn't three, but I have no idea why anyone wants to, let alone why anyone wants to persecute others who see it is nonsense created by taking language too literally when it is being used beyond its literal limits to refer to the spirit.

So my question is WHY is it even vaguely important to insist God is three, what purpose does it serve ???

There are several reasons for my question, to do with scripture, but first I would like to see if you have any kind of answer

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God has revealed himself in history and scripture as father, son, and holy spirit. Only F,S,HS are addressed or referred to as God and perform the prerogatives of God.

God has revealed himself in history and scripture as father, son, and holy spirit. Only F,S,HS are addressed or referred to as God and perform the prerogatives of God.

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Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Jesus showed us God through love... it is no different for the saints , the very image of the son , true sons of God , so why not count them in this obsession with counting God and not reaching the answer one ?

stranger said:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Jesus showed us God through love... it is no different for the saints , the very image of the son , true sons of God , so why not count them in this obsession with counting God and not reaching the answer one ?

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If Jesus had to show us God then quite obviously we are not God. Where does scripture call any man "the very image of the son?" Where does scripture say we are "true sons of God?" We are sons of God by adoption. God has only one begotten Son. Still waiting for you to address anything I said on the previous pages.

Der Alter said:

Where does scripture say we are "true sons of God?"

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Der Alter said:

We are sons of God by adoption. God has only one begotten Son.

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The Scriptures say that we are the body of Christ, and each one of us is part of it (1 Corinthians 12:27). The Scriptures say that we are The Temple of God but Jesus' body is identified with His Temple (John 2:21).

So we are one with Christ. What does this mean? It means that we are part of God's only begotten Son! Or doesn't it?

But yes, in a certain way, we are ... kinda 'adopted' since we are described as the branches which were grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11).

addo said:

John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are!​

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I agree, "children of" but NOT "true sons of God." So in what sense are we children of God?

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

The Scriptures say that we are the body of Christ, and each one of us is part of it (1 Corinthians 12:27). The Scriptures say that we are The Temple of God but Jesus' body is identified with His Temple (John 2:21).

So we are one with Christ. What does this mean? It means that we are part of God's only begotten Son! Or doesn't it?

But yes, in a certain way, we are ... kinda 'adopted' since we are described as the branches which were grafted into the olive tree (Romans 11)

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All scripture must be harmonized. We are children of God by adoption, see Rom 8;15, Gal 4:5, above.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.