Is God Plural?

[rahmiyn]

I once had a muslim friend tell me they reject Christianity mainly because of our trinity doctrine. God is one, which is the fundamental root of Judaism as well. Monotheism is what distinguished the children of Abraham from all others.

Yet, in both the old testament and the Qur'an, God refers to himself as "We," or in the Bible, "our."

How do both the muslims on this forum and Christians explain this name for God that is plural? Especially, when there are other names for God in our Bible (I'm not sure about the Qur'an) that do not reflect this plurality (mainly YHWH.)

Thoughts?

 

[oldsage]

I once had a muslim friend tell me they reject Christianity mainly because of our trinity doctrine. God is one, which is the fundamental root of Judaism as well. Monotheism is what distinguished the children of Abraham from all others.

Yet, in both the old testament and the Qur'an, God refers to himself as "We," or in the Bible, "our."

How do both the muslims on this forum and Christians explain this name for God that is plural? Especially, when there are other names for God in our Bible (I'm not sure about the Qur'an) that do not reflect this plurality (mainly YHWH.)

Thoughts?

Maybe I am not understanding what you are asking, but the reason I would say can be two fold for the use of plurals. One is the "Plural of Majesty" and the other is the Trinity.

Chris

 

[ittarter]

How do both the muslims on this forum and Christians explain this name for God that is plural? Especially, when there are other names for God in our Bible (I'm not sure about the Qur'an) that do not reflect this plurality (mainly YHWH.)

Why would Christians need to explain the divine "we"? Maybe you meant Jewish practitioners?

Thoughts?

Monotheism, or the belief in "one" God, is primarily the belief of a singular divine essence. In fact, most religions are monotheistic in an important (and often ignored) sense. The polytheistic element usually manifests itself in a lower level of divinity -- for example, animism, where all living things have a spiritual reality. The highest level of divinity, however, is usually "one."

Many Christians also demonstrate dualistic and polytheistic spiritual elements by believing in angels and demons, praying to saints in heaven, and seeing Satanic elements throughout life. So, perhaps we are not as "monotheistic" as we are made out to be. Monotheism proper typically degenerates due to the paradoxical nature of life.

The language used to describe this oneness varies, of course, but I think the degree that this supposed disagreement is clouded by semantics is highly underrated.

 

[rahmiyn]

Maybe I am not understanding what you are asking, but the reason I would say can be two fold for the use of plurals. One is the "Plural of Majesty" and the other is the Trinity.

Chris

Can you explain "Plural of Majesty" a bit more? I've never heard the term before now.

Many Christians also demonstrate dualistic and polytheistic spiritual elements by believing in angels and demons, praying to saints in heaven, and seeing Satanic elements throughout life. So, perhaps we are not as "monotheistic" as we are made out to be. Monotheism proper typically degenerates due to the paradoxical nature of life.

The language used to describe this oneness varies, of course, but I think the degree that this supposed disagreement is clouded by semantics is highly underrated.

Hmm. . . When God says we should have no other gods before him, I wonder if he is talking about what you've described above. I think you're right, that we have more gods in our pantheon of beliefs than we realize. I've even wondered if material possessions can be gods to us in the way God would describe a rival to his desired place in our lives.

But, I'm not sure this explains why in all three religions of the Book, the early names for God are plural. I was particularly surprised to find a plural reference to God in the Qur'an (where God in the passage refers to himself as "we" and "our."

 

[ittarter]

Hmm. . . When God says we should have no other gods before him, I wonder if he is talking about what you've described above. I think you're right, that we have more gods in our pantheon of beliefs than we realize. I've even wondered if material possessions can be gods to us in the way God would describe a rival to his desired place in our lives.

We are often overly concerned with material possessions, but I'm not sure if that alone raises them to deity status. In the case of obtaining inert objects, it strikes me that we the consumer are our own gods. That might be the same as saying there is no God (cf. Ps. 53:1), since there is no higher power on which I and the world around me depend.

But, I'm not sure this explains why in all three religions of the Book, the early names for God are plural. I was particularly surprised to find a plural reference to God in the Qur'an (where God in the passage refers to himself as "we" and "our."

I think the Jewish interpretation typically runs the way of the "royal plural" (a king referring to himself as "we" because of the greatness of his persona -- lots of rulers over the ages have done this) or, my preference, seeing it as a reference to God and his angelic hosts.

I'm not sure what Islamic scholars would make of it.

Deut. 6:4 Listen, Israel, Yhwh Elohim Yhwh is one.

 

[rahmiyn]

I think the Jewish interpretation typically runs the way of the "royal plural" (a king referring to himself as "we" because of the greatness of his persona -- lots of rulers over the ages have done this) or, my preference, seeing it as a reference to God and his angelic hosts.

I have read that the ancient Canaanites used the plural names to indicate the highest god of many. It is interesting that both the Qur'an and the Torah (Old Testament) use plural names for God. I believe Yahweh is the first name for God that emphasizes One God.

I'm not sure what Islamic scholars would make of it.

It would be interesting to hear from Muslims on this.

 

[John 10:10]

Since the ONE TRUE GOD has chosen to reveal and manifest Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Old Covenant concealed thus becomes the New Covenant revealed. Therefore, all understanding of who the ONE TRUE GOD is must be understood in the light of the New Covenant relationship God gives to us thru the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15 explains more fully where we have been, and where we are going:

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[ittarter]

I have read that the ancient Canaanites used the plural names to indicate the highest god of many. It is interesting that both the Qur'an and the Torah (Old Testament) use plural names for God. I believe Yahweh is the first name for God that emphasizes One God.

I dunno. You don't really get the sense of "only one God" until the 6th cent. BCE (esp. the prophecy of Isaiah; "all other gods are wood and stone" and so forth). The original "Pentateuch" is clear that Yhwh is the greatest God of gods, as you say, the plural indicating "the highest god of many" (cf. the commandment "you shall have no other gods before me," indicating plurality yet supremacy) but I can't think of anywhere where it is stated that he is the only God.

 

[BobW188]

God is "plural" in the sense that the three sides of a triangle are plural. God is "one" in the sense that the triangle is one; and cannot exist as a triangle if the sides are not contiguous or one is removed.

 

[St_Worm2]

I dunno. You don't really get the sense of "only one God" until the 6th cent. BCE (esp. the prophecy of Isaiah; "all other gods are wood and stone" and so forth). The original "Pentateuch" is clear that Yhwh is the greatest God of gods, as you say, the plural indicating "the highest god of many" (cf. the commandment "you shall have no other gods before me," indicating plurality yet supremacy) but I can't think of anywhere where it is stated that he is the only God.

Hi Ittarter, maybe it was simply my upbringing in church as a kid, but I think I always had a sense from the Bible that there was only one true God. Here are a few verses from the OT (even a few from the Torah) that seem to indicate His uniqueness, yes?

"To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35


“Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39


“Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!" Deuteronomy 6:4
​

And a couple more that come to mind from Isaiah:

"You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,

So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10​

“I am the Lord, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5​

​

And from the NT, a pretty clear indication that the Jews understood this truth prior to Jesus' incarnation and ministry:

The scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him". Mark 12:32​

​

Yours and His,
David

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you
were called in one hope of your calling; 
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
one God and Father of all,
who is over all & through
all & in all .​

Ephesians 4:4-6​

 

[rahmiyn]

I dunno. You don't really get the sense of "only one God" until the 6th cent. BCE (esp. the prophecy of Isaiah; "all other gods are wood and stone" and so forth). The original "Pentateuch" is clear that Yhwh is the greatest God of gods, as you say, the plural indicating "the highest god of many" (cf. the commandment "you shall have no other gods before me," indicating plurality yet supremacy) but I can't think of anywhere where it is stated that he is the only God.

From what I understand, the Jewish YHWH was the first name of God that clearly means the only or the one true God. What differentiates the Jewish and Islamic faiths from all others is they adhere strongly to the idea of there being only one God. As I said earlier, Islam in particular takes issue with the Trinity, and they see Christianity as a polytheistic religion because of it.

I like Bob's triangle explanation. I've never heard that before, and it's a very good analogy of why God has plural names but is the only true and one God.

 

[St_Worm2]

What differentiates the Jewish and Islamic faiths from all others is they adhere strongly to the idea of there being only one God. As I said earlier, Islam in particular takes issue with the Trinity, and they see Christianity as a polytheistic religion because of it.

Hi Rahmiyn, we too "adhere strongly" to the idea that there is only one God (Christians, that is). This is going to turn into a full-blown discussion of the Trinity, isn't it! Oh well, there are much less interesting subjects ..

I don't have the time for that right now, but let me leave you with this thought. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a vehicle to explain the Trinity, that's beyond us. Rather, it's point is to define and safeguard a mystery that, while impossible to completely comprehend on our plane of existence, is none the less clearly taught throughout the Bible, especially in the NT.

Yours and His,
David

 

[rahmiyn]

What differentiates the Jewish and Islamic faiths from all others is they adhere strongly to the idea of there being only one God. As I said earlier, Islam in particular takes issue with the Trinity, and they see Christianity as a polytheistic religion because of it.

Hi Rahmiyn, we too "adhere strongly" to the idea that there is only one God (Christians, that is). This is going to turn into a full-blown discussion of the Trinity, isn't it! Oh well, there are much less interesting subjects ..

I don't have the time for that right now, but let me leave you with this thought. The doctrine of the Trinity is not a vehicle to explain the Trinity, that's beyond us. Rather, it's point is to define and safeguard a mystery that, while impossible to completely comprehend on our plane of existence, is none the less clearly taught throughout the Bible, especially in the NT.

Yours and His,
David

I agree with you fully, David. But, I can see how someone outside Christianity can be offended by the idea that we would include as God a human who said he was the son of God. I can also understand why someone would see this as polytheism, even though I believe fully as a Christian we serve Almighty God--and that God is One.

Tbh, I'm more surprised to find the plurality in Islam, beings they are the ones who argue most strongly against religions that do not worship the One True God. So far, the thread has not had an Islamic scholar explain how they see this. Even the "royal we" seems more a suggestion than a scholarly explanation.

 

[ittarter]

From what I understand, the Jewish YHWH was the first name of God that clearly means the only or the one true God.

Like I said, from the evidence I've cited that seems anachronistic. Eventually the name Yhwh was fused with monotheism, but not from the get-go.

 

[rahmiyn]

Like I said, from the evidence I've cited that seems anachronistic. Eventually the name Yhwh was fused with monotheism, but not from the get-go.

Do you have the source? I would be very interested in following up with it. I've only read Karen Armstrong's A History of God, and she confirms basically what you say about the evolution of monotheism in the Canaanite culture, but she indicates Yhwh was first used by the Jews who first left Egypt, that Yhwh was the name of "Moses' God."

 

[ittarter]

Do you have the source? I would be very interested in following up with it. I've only read Karen Armstrong's A History of God, and she confirms basically what you say about the evolution of monotheism in the Canaanite culture, but she indicates Yhwh was first used by the Jews who first left Egypt, that Yhwh was the name of "Moses' God."

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what secondary literature influenced my thinking here. One book might have been Geerhardus Vos' Biblical Theology. But primarily when I think of the progression of the Hebrew Bible, explicit declarations of monotheism only occur no earlier than the prophetic era. In the Pentateuch and the "former prophets" (Joshua-2 Kings) the gods of other nations are treated mockingly, but their existence is not denied outright.

Your paraphrase of Armstrong matches what we can determine from Exod. 2, assuming it properly represents 13th-11th cent. BCE and is not itself a historical anachronism. Obviously, however, a new name for a Deity, by itself, does not demonstrate monotheism. It either demonstrates the discovery of a new god, or the reconceptualization of an old god. In light of the picture we get from Genesis, the latter is much more likely. And this is confirmed by many studies of how the name Yhwh carries with it different connotative values than the other divine appelations (such as El, Elohim, Adonai, Yah, and so on). Yhwh is associated specifically with the salvific journey of the people of Israel. This comes out pretty clearly if you can read the Hebrew text.

 

[rahmiyn]

Thank you for your information.

Your paraphrase of Armstrong matches what we can determine from Exod. 2, assuming it properly represents 12th-14th cent. BCE and is not itself a historical anachronism. . .

She attributes Yhwh to 6th-century BC, Israel, and the recording of the Genesis account of Creation. But, she writes (referencing the Documentary Hypothesis):

But who is Yahweh? Did Abraham worship the same God as Moses or did he know him by a different name? This would be a matter of prime importance to us today, but the Bible seems curiously vague on the subject and gives conflicting answers to this question. J says that men had worshipped Yahweh ever since the time of Adam's grandson, but in the sixth-century, P seems to suggest that the Israelites had never heard of Yahweh until he appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush. P makes Yahweh explain that he really was the same God as the God of Abraham, as though this were a rather controversial notion: he tells Moses that Abraham had called him "El Shaddai" and did not know the divine name Yahweh. J calls his God Yahweh throughout" (14).

She explains later that "El Shaddai" translates as the greatest among all gods (which the similar translation of Allah or "al Lah" as she explains her her later chapter on Islam.)

 

[St_Worm2]

I agree with you fully, David. But, I can see how someone outside Christianity can be offended by the idea that we would include as God a human who said he was the son of God. I can also understand why someone would see this as polytheism, even though I believe fully as a Christian we serve Almighty God--and that God is One.

Hi Rahmiyn, agreed. This doctrine is clearly too difficult for many within our own ranks to truly lay hold of .. How much less those outside of Christianity!

Tbh, I'm more surprised to find the plurality in Islam, beings they are the ones who argue most strongly against religions that do not worship the One True God. So far, the thread has not had an Islamic scholar explain how they see this. Even the "royal we" seems more a suggestion than a scholarly explanation.

Yes, perhaps the most interesting question you asked in your OP (for me, at least). I had no idea that was the case. I hope that one of our Muslim friends will come along soon and enlighten us ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[ittarter]

Rahmiyn,

It sounds like Karen Armstrong and I agree And she's definitely right about the meaning of "El Shaddai." In much current scholarship, the documentary hypothesis has fallen out of favor, but some of its basic axioms still hold true.

Thanks for quoting her:

Did Abraham worship the same God as Moses or did he know him by a different name?

It is easy to ignore the importance of a Deity's name for ancient peoples. Shakespeare's "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" would fall flat, I'm afraid. The divine name is closely tied to his identity. Moreover, the revelation of a Deity's name was a mysterious gift to its worshiping community. In the name, the Deity is present. (Hans-Joachim Kraus, among others, discusses this in his major systematic theology, forgot the name but it has been translated into English) And the community, by knowing the name, may exert influence over the deity. Thus upon the revelation of the name in Exod. 2, the relationship between Yhwh and the children of Abraham is forever changed. Accordingly, it is no surprise that immediately following the exodus from Egypt, the tabernacle is designed and created (Exod. 25ish-40). This is the formal realization of the revelation of the name.

 

[rahmiyn]

The divine name is closely tied to his identity. Moreover, the revelation of a Deity's name was a mysterious gift to its worshiping community. In the name, the Deity is present. (Hans-Joachim Kraus, among others, discusses this in his major systematic theology, forgot the name but it has been translated into English) And the community, by knowing the name, may exert influence over the deity.

Thank you. I wasn't able to find an english translation for his books other than his works on the Psalms. I did find The Names of God by Lester Sumrall. Would you recommend him? Or perhaps other works you might recommend that would delve into ancient cultural connections into the names of God?