Is God active at all in the reprobate?

reformedfan · Oct 1, 2005

wow, you're doing pretty good in there!

(I'm afraid to post anywhere but here & even limited to here, i'm still causing problems, i betta stay out of it )

Elect · Oct 1, 2005

akolouthein said:
I've been recently perusing these boards and learning a lot. Until I started searching here I had no clue about the principles behind double predestination and could not grasp it but that has started to change. I'm hoping someone can answer a few questions I have about the subject.

Since God has elected some to be saved does the Holy Spirit work in the reprobate at all? For example, I know that the Holy Spirit was at work in me for a long time and led me to belief in Christ. Does the Holy Spirit even bother with the reprobate at all? Does God try to lead them?

Is double predestination one of the great mysteries? How can God even create a human knowing that will end up in hell? With this belief I'm not sure we can fully understand the mind of God and this would seem to fall into that category.

Yes! God is not trying to save them, but He does work them to fulfill His purpose.
[size=-1]
[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]For by him were all things created[/size][size=-1], that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: [/size][size=-1]all things were created by him, and for him[/size][size=-1]:"[/size][size=-1] (Colossians 1:16)

[/size][size=-1]"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [/size][size=-1]Declaring the end from the beginning[/size][size=-1], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and [/size][size=-1]I will do all my pleasure[/size][size=-1]: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country:[/size][size=-1] yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (Isaiah 46:9-11)

[/size][size=-1]"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but [/size][size=-1]I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go[/size][size=-1]. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, [/size][size=-1]I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Exodus 4:21-23)

[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them[/size][size=-1], as the LORD commanded Moses."[/size][size=-1] (Joshua 11:20)

[/size][size=-1]"And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. [/size][size=-1]For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (2 Samuel 17:14)

[/size][size=-1]"And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, [/size][size=-1]the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (2 Chronicles 18:19-22)

[/size][size=-1]"The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; [/size][size=-1]into whose hand God bringeth[/size][size=-1] abundantly. But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. [/size][size=-1]Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Job 12:6-10)
[/size][size=-1]
[/size][size=-1]"Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. [/size][size=-1]Thou turnest man to destruction[/size][size=-1]; and sayest, Return, ye children of men."[/size][size=-1] (Psalm 90:1-3)

[/size][size=-1]"He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen. They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham. [/size][size=-1]He sent darkness, and made it dark[/size][size=-1]; and they rebelled not against his word. [/size][size=-1]He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish[/size][size=-1]. Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings. [/size][size=-1]He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts. He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land. He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts. He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers[/size][size=-1], and that without number, And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground. [/size][size=-1]He smote also all the firstborn in their land[/size][size=-1], the chief of all their strength." [/size][size=-1](Psalm 105:26-36)

[/size][size=-1]"The LORD hath made all things for himself:[/size][size=-1] yea, even the wicked for the day of evil[/size][size=-1]." [/size][size=-1](Proverbs 16:4)

[/size][size=-1]"The[/size][size=-1] king's heart is in the hand of the LORD[/size][size=-1], as the rivers of water: [/size][size=-1]he turneth it whithersoever he will[/size][size=-1]." [/size][size=-1](Proverbs 21:1)

[/size][size=-1]"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: [/size][size=-1]I girded thee, though thou hast not known me[/size][size=-1]: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. [/size][size=-1]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Isaiah 45:5-7)

[/size][size=-1]"Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? [/size][size=-1]Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (Lamentations 3:37-38)

[/size][size=-1]"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, [/size][size=-1]I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Ezekiel 14:9)[/size][size=-1]

[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]As thou hast given him power over all flesh[/size][size=-1], that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."[/size][size=-1] (John 17:2)

[/size][size=-1]"Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, [/size][size=-1]except it were given thee from above[/size][size=-1]: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."[/size][size=-1] (John 19:10-11)

[/size][size=-1]"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [/size][size=-1]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain[/size][size=-1]:" [/size][size=-1](Acts 2:22-23)

[/size][size=-1]"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, [/size][size=-1]Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth[/size][size=-1]. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [/size][size=-1]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction[/size][size=-1]: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"[/size][size=-1] (Romans 9:17-24)

[/size][size=-1]"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. [/size][size=-1]For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (Romans 13:1)

[/size][size=-1]"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause [/size][size=-1]God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (2 Thessalonians 2:6-12)

[/size][size=-1]"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For [/size][size=-1]God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled[/size][size=-1]." [/size][size=-1](Revelation 17:15-17)
[/size]

akolouthein · Oct 1, 2005

Elect said:
Yes! God is not trying to save them, but He does work them to fulfill His purpose.
[size=-1]
[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]For by him were all things created[/size][size=-1], that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: [/size][size=-1]all things were created by him, and for him[/size][size=-1]:"[/size][size=-1] (Colossians 1:16)

[/size][size=-1]"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, [/size][size=-1]Declaring the end from the beginning[/size][size=-1], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and [/size][size=-1]I will do all my pleasure[/size][size=-1]: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country:[/size][size=-1] yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (Isaiah 46:9-11)

[/size][size=-1]"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but [/size][size=-1]I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go[/size][size=-1]. And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, [/size][size=-1]I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Exodus 4:21-23)

[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them[/size][size=-1], as the LORD commanded Moses."[/size][size=-1] (Joshua 11:20)

[/size][size=-1]"And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. [/size][size=-1]For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (2 Samuel 17:14)

[/size][size=-1]"And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, [/size][size=-1]the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (2 Chronicles 18:19-22)

[/size][size=-1]"The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; [/size][size=-1]into whose hand God bringeth[/size][size=-1] abundantly. But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. [/size][size=-1]Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Job 12:6-10)
[/size][size=-1]
[/size][size=-1]"Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. [/size][size=-1]Thou turnest man to destruction[/size][size=-1]; and sayest, Return, ye children of men."[/size][size=-1] (Psalm 90:1-3)

[/size][size=-1]"He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen. They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham. [/size][size=-1]He sent darkness, and made it dark[/size][size=-1]; and they rebelled not against his word. [/size][size=-1]He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish[/size][size=-1]. Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings. [/size][size=-1]He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts. He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land. He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts. He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers[/size][size=-1], and that without number, And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground. [/size][size=-1]He smote also all the firstborn in their land[/size][size=-1], the chief of all their strength." [/size][size=-1](Psalm 105:26-36)

[/size][size=-1]"The LORD hath made all things for himself:[/size][size=-1] yea, even the wicked for the day of evil[/size][size=-1]." [/size][size=-1](Proverbs 16:4)

[/size][size=-1]"The[/size][size=-1] king's heart is in the hand of the LORD[/size][size=-1], as the rivers of water: [/size][size=-1]he turneth it whithersoever he will[/size][size=-1]." [/size][size=-1](Proverbs 21:1)

[/size][size=-1]"I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: [/size][size=-1]I girded thee, though thou hast not known me[/size][size=-1]: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. [/size][size=-1]I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Isaiah 45:5-7)

[/size][size=-1]"Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? [/size][size=-1]Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (Lamentations 3:37-38)

[/size][size=-1]"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, [/size][size=-1]I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (Ezekiel 14:9)[/size][size=-1]

[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1]As thou hast given him power over all flesh[/size][size=-1], that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."[/size][size=-1] (John 17:2)

[/size][size=-1]"Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, [/size][size=-1]except it were given thee from above[/size][size=-1]: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."[/size][size=-1] (John 19:10-11)

[/size][size=-1]"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: [/size][size=-1]Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain[/size][size=-1]:" [/size][size=-1](Acts 2:22-23)

[/size][size=-1]"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, [/size][size=-1]Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth[/size][size=-1]. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [/size][size=-1]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction[/size][size=-1]: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"[/size][size=-1] (Romans 9:17-24)

[/size][size=-1]"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. [/size][size=-1]For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.[/size][size=-1]"[/size][size=-1] (Romans 13:1)

[/size][size=-1]"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause [/size][size=-1]God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness[/size][size=-1]."[/size][size=-1] (2 Thessalonians 2:6-12)

[/size][size=-1]"And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For [/size][size=-1]God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled[/size][size=-1]." [/size][size=-1](Revelation 17:15-17)
[/size]

Very good scriptural support, thank you !

cygnusx1 · Oct 2, 2005

when speaking of God's work amongst the reprobate the first line of scriptures I would use are these ;

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.(Rom 10:13 KJV)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.(Mat 24:14 KJV)

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev 22:17 KJV)

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.(1 John 4:15 KJV)

The Word of The Lord , "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David" (Isaiah 55:1-3).

also these quotes by John Calvin sure help ..........

He calls all men to himself, without a single exception, and gives Christ to all, that we may be illumined by him. (Isaiah 3:295)

When we pray, we ought, according to the rule of charity, to include all. (Jeremiah 2:248)

God invites all indiscriminately to salvation through the Gospel, but the ingratitude of the world is the reason why this grace, which is equally offered to all, is enjoyed by few. (Synoptic Gospels 1:116)

As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief. (Acts 1:92)

Though it is offered to all for salvation, it does not yield this fruit in any but the elect. (Synoptic Gospel. 2:257)

God ...shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to faith in Christ ...For Christ is made known and held out to the view of all, but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens, that they may seek him by faith. (John 1:125)

... the end and design of public teaching...that all should in common be called; but God's purpose is different; for he intends, according to his own secret counsel, to draw to himself the elect, and he designs to take away all excuse from the reprobate. (Joel- Obadiah 252)

Paul makes grace common to all men, not because it in fact extends to all, but because it is offered to all. (Romans 117-118)

Christ ... kindles for all indiscriminately the torch of his gospel; but all have not the eyes of their minds opened to see it, but on the contrary Satan spreads the veil of blindness over many. (General Epistles 273-274)

God commands [the gospel] to be offered indiscriminately to all. (Genesis 1:503)

[God]...commands his threatenings to be proposed to the elect, and reprobate, in common. (Genesis 1:255)

God's mercy is offered for the worst of men. (Four Last Books of Moses 3:240)

It is our duty to pray for all who trouble us; to desire the salvation of all men. (Psalm 4:283)

Elsewhere in the above book of Calvin quotations, we have the following indications that Calvin believed in the free indiscriminate offer of the gospel:

The gospel is to be preached indiscriminately to the elect and to the reprobate: but the elect alone come to Christ, because they have been taught of God. (Isaiah 4:146)

God offers his word indiscriminately to the good and bad; but it works by his spirit in the electas to the reprobateit renders them without excuse. (Ezekiel 1:113)

http://www.geocities.com/cfpchurch/freeoffercalvin.html

I would much later go on to quote scriptures where God hardens men ..............

It is just too easy (tempting) to start at page 405 in a 500 page book than carefully go through the book!

akolouthein · Oct 2, 2005

Thanks Cygnus, those are great examples of evangelism to all people !

Elect · Oct 2, 2005

Technically, if the gospel is preached to the reprobate, it is a call to believe the gospel, even though he will not. We are to preach the gospel to every creature. For two reasons.

1) It is commanded by God
2) We do not know who the elect are

Just because one does not believe today does not mean that he will not believe tomorrow. If one never hears the gospel, then he did not have it offered to him. Rejection of the gospel does not condemn a person, because if he does not believe he is already condemned.

The only way that we can know who is of the elect, is be belief. Belief reveals one to be elect or a sheep.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:26-29)

cygnusx1 · Oct 2, 2005

Elect said:
Technically, if the gospel is preached to the reprobate, it is a call to believe the gospel, even though he will not. We are to preach the gospel to every creature. For two reasons.

1) It is commanded by God
2) We do not know who the elect are

Hi Elect
True we do not know who the Elect are , but Christ did and he still preached to 'all' ie, men indiscriminately ...... and if we preach The Gospel urging men to repent , it is God that is in us , calling sinners (even reprobates) to stop , turn around and be saved!

Just because one does not believe today does not mean that he will not believe tomorrow. If one never hears the gospel, then he did not have it offered to him. Rejection of the gospel does not condemn a person, because if he does not believe he is already condemned.

True!

The only way that we can know who is of the elect, is be belief. Belief reveals one to be elect or a sheep.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:26-29)

True , but how many Calvinists who believe in 'loving all men' indiscriminately even though they believe (wrongly) that God only loves the Elect!
Too many Calvinist's attempt to interpret God's motives in giving good things (including The Gospel) solely by the outcome !
Would you judge your own motives in giving someone a gift by HOW THEY WILL RESPOND TO IT ?

The Gospel is given to even those who will reject it , as another example of just how good God is , for truly , God could have , revealed the Gospel to only the Elect!

If Sinners refuse The Gospel message , then they are in fact spitting in God's face , and provoking God to anger.
The Holy Spirit witnesses to the hard heart of reprobates , and they cannot abide the truth , so they surpress it ...

Except for the new birth all men would supress the truth.

The problem arises when some Calvinist's confuse God's intent with the outcome , it is clear why they do this , God cannot be thwarted , He could save everyone if He chose to work the same way with reprobates as He does with the Elect . But God has chosen to be gracious by degree , to the reprobate God is gracious , they shouldn't even be alive , much less hear the Good News!
To the Elect God is infinitely Gracious.they too shouldn't even be alive , never mind seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus!
I see H/Calvinism as painting a picture of God that shows God as Vindictive and mean spirited toward the reprobate (''hot coals'') while showing love only to the Elect.That is unscriptural and paints a warped picture of God .
I see in scripture God showing genuine Love (there is no such thing as love that is not genuine) to all men , but a blazing Higher Love to the Elect .That is both love and extreme Love.

I believe those ''hot coals'' are completely secondary in intent , ie, they are conditional upon men sinning , but the gifts of God's grace are not. For God is reluctant to judge but quick to forgive....as we should be.

Greetings in Christ
Cygnus

akolouthein · Oct 2, 2005

cygnusx1 said:
Hi Elect
True we do not know who the Elect are , but Christ did and he still preached to 'all' ie, men indiscriminately ...... and if we preach The Gospel urging men to repent , it is God that is in us , calling sinners (even reprobates) to stop , turn around and be saved!

True!

True , but how many Calvinists who believe in 'loving all men' indiscriminately even though they believe (wrongly) that God only loves the Elect!
Too many Calvinist's attempt to interpret God's motives in giving good things (including The Gospel) solely by the outcome !
Would you judge your own motives in giving someone a gift by HOW THEY WILL RESPOND TO IT ?

The Gospel is given to even those who will reject it , as another example of just how good God is , for truly , God could have , revealed the Gospel to only the Elect!

If Sinners refuse The Gospel message , then they are in fact spitting in God's face , and provoking God to anger.
The Holy Spirit witnesses to the hard heart of reprobates , and they cannot abide the truth , so they surpress it ...

Except for the new birth all men would supress the truth.

The problem arises when some Calvinist's confuse God's intent with the outcome , it is clear why they do this , God cannot be thwarted , He could save everyone if He chose to work the same way with reprobates as He does with the Elect . But God has chosen to be gracious by degree , to the reprobate God is gracious , they shouldn't even be alive , much less hear the Good News!
To the Elect God is infinitely Gracious.they too shouldn't even be alive , never mind seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus!
I see H/Calvinism as painting a picture of God that shows God as Vindictive and mean spirited toward the reprobate (''hot coals'') while showing love only to the Elect.That is unscriptural and paints a warped picture of God .
I see in scripture God showing genuine Love (there is no such thing as love that is not genuine) to all men , but a blazing Higher Love to the Elect .That is both love and extreme Love.

I believe those ''hot coals'' are completely secondary in intent , ie, they are conditional upon men sinning , but the gifts of God's grace are not. For God is reluctant to judge but quick to forgive....as we should be.

Greetings in Christ
Cygnus

Woot! Great message Cygnus . I couldnt agree more. When someone says "define God in ONE word" I say .... Love. Love love love is all you need <sings> . I believe the bible is clear that it hurts our loving father to see His children liviing in sin and refusing to believe He loves them. In Epehsians 1: 5 "He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will" I dont think there is anything there that infers he takes some giddy pleasure in damning people to hell.

I went to my first Presbyterian church today and I must say, I'm impressed. Its SO funny you brought up God's love in this topic because that is exactly what the Reverend's sermon was about.

cygnusx1 · Oct 3, 2005

If there is anyone reading this thread who isn't saved and worries that they may be a reprobate , then Repent!

Don't stand there debating something in your mind that is hidden to you!

Humble yourself , ask God to turn you , ask God to break your stubborn will and accept God's Son as Your Lord and Saviour.

If you persist in opposing God , God will oppose you.

Now is the time , not tomorrow , but today , do not harden your heart , but admit your sin now , before God .

There is no need to worry about election or Reprobation , the thing you must concern yourself with is getting right with God.

If you should Repent and trust in Jesus Christ , accept Him as Lord , then you will be amongst the Elect!
God will grant you salvation and your life will change.

5solas · Oct 3, 2005

cygnusx1 said:
If there is anyone reading this thread who isn't saved and worries that they may be a reprobate , then Repent!

Don't stand there debating something in your mind that is hidden to you!

Humble yourself , ask God to turn you , ask God to break your stubborn will and accept God's Son as Your Lord and Saviour.

If you persist in opposing God , God will oppose you.

Now is the time , not tomorrow , but today , do not harden your heart , but admit your sin now , before God .

There is no need to worry about election or Reprobation , the thing you must concern yourself with is getting right with God.

If you should Repent and trust in Jesus Christ , accept Him as Lord , then you will be amongst the Elect!
God will grant you salvation and your life will change.

this sounds like Spurgeon ... anyway it's just biblical!

Jon_ · Oct 3, 2005

cygnusx1 said:
For God is reluctant to judge. . . .

I've never read in the Scriptures where God is reluctant to judge. In fact, that is precisely what the reprobate have been made for: judgment.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

cygnusx1 · Oct 3, 2005

Jon_ said:
I've never read in the Scriptures where God is reluctant to judge. In fact, that is precisely what the reprobate have been made for: judgment.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

it is just that type of concept , 'that God makes men to damn them' that gives Calvinist's such a bad name , and rightly so , it is warped!

''For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.'' Lamentations 3:32-36

when some Calvinist's have finshed rationalising the Faith into God only Loves the elect (me) and He hates everyone else ....... they may be happy with worshipping a God who is so incompassionate and hard hearted towards their fellow man to shout up praises for a Gospel of Love .............. It is not so with me.

God is Love , and God is slow to anger and reluctant to afflict or grieve the children of men.

5solas · Oct 3, 2005

Jon_ said:
I've never read in the Scriptures where God is reluctant to judge. In fact, that is precisely what the reprobate have been made for: judgment.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

perhaps Cyg has this in mind?

Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Jon_ · Oct 3, 2005

cygnusx1 said:
it is just that type of concept , 'that God makes men to damn them' that gives Calvinist's such a bad name , and rightly so , it is warped!

''For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.'' Lamentations 3:32-36

when some Calvinist's have finshed rationalising the Faith into God only Loves the elect (me) and He hates everyone else ....... they may be happy with worshipping a God who is so incompassionate and hard hearted towards their fellow man to shout up praises for a Gospel of Love .............. It is not so with me.

Don't stop reading at v. 36, cyg.

(Lam. 3:37, 38 AV) Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? 38) Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Let's not forget this verse, either:

(Prv. 16:4 AV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Or this one:

(Rev. 16:9 AV) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

cygnusx1 said:
and God is slow to anger and reluctant to afflict or grieve the children of men.

Yes, that is true. But that doesn't mean that God is desirous that all be saved.

The problem with your position is you have neither scriptural support nor logical support for your arguments. All you have is how you feel about God. You feel that God is loving toward all men, doubtless based on those passages which talk about the infinite love of God, but you have made inferences where there is no justification for them. God does not desire the repentance of the reprobate, else he would effect it. To argue otherwise is to argue that God is duplicitous, desperately desiring the reprobate to repent, but denying them the regeneration that would enable it.

There is just simply no basis for this belief.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_ · Oct 3, 2005

5solas said:
perhaps Cyg has this in mind?

Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Perhaps. But this would just be another excellent example of coercing an interpretation out of the text. This verse says nothing of God's reluctance to judge. It does not even say that God wants all men to repent. It says that God's kindness, forbearance, and long-suffering ought to lead men to repentance. God's love and kindness toward men ought (that is, morally obligates) to cause them to repent. That is precisely what the verse says. To argue that it goes farther than that is to commit a logical blunder and engage in eisegesis.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

cygnusx1 · Oct 3, 2005

5solas said:
perhaps Cyg has this in mind?

Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, and the forbearance and the long-suffering, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

yes brother that is a very relevant text ............. the H/Calvinist will say the good things "riches of His Kindness" God grants to the Reprobate are not really good , they are only a means to damn men more!

Gd is after blood , God only made some men to smash them , no other reason is offered , and the declaration of God's Longsuffering in Romans 9 is overlooked , or denied any real meaning.

cygnusx1 · Oct 3, 2005

Jon_ said:
Perhaps. But this would just be another excellent example of coercing an interpretation out of the text. This verse says nothing of God's reluctance to judge. It does not even say that God wants all men to repent. It says that God's kindness, forbearance, and long-suffering ought to lead men to repentance. God's love and kindness toward men ought (that is, morally obligates) to cause them to repent. That is precisely what the verse says. To argue that it goes farther than that is to commit a logical blunder and engage in eisegesis.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

and just why would God be pressing a moral obligation , if He is not showing kindness ?

and if He is showing kindness , he is showing it for a reason ............... you have the reason spelled out for you in the text ......... to lead them to repentance ....... not condemnation , they are already condemned!

cygnusx1 · Oct 3, 2005

Now, the next question is a different one: Why did God hate Esau? I am not going to mix this question up with the other, they are entirely distinct, and I intend to keep them so, one answer will not do for two questions, they must be taken separately, and then can be answered satisfactorily. Why does God hate any man? I defy anyone to give any answer but this, because that man deserves it; no reply but that can ever be true. There are some who answer, divine sovereignty; but I challenge them to look that doctrine in the face. Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, sovereignlyit is the same thingcreated that man, with no other intention, than that of damning him? Made him, and yet, for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you, that is all I can say: you deserve pity, that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever. You are quite right when you say the reason why God loves a man, is because God does do so; there is no reason in the man. But do not give the same answer as to why God hates a man. If God deals with any man severely, it is because that man deserves all he gets. In hell there will not be a solitary soul that will say to God, O Lord, thou hast treated me worse than I deserve! But every lost spirit will be made to feel that he has got his deserts, that his destruction lies at his own door and not at the door of God; that God had nothing to do with his condemnation, except as the Judge condemns the criminal, but that he himself brought damnation upon his own head, as the result of his own evil works. Justice is that which damns a man; it is mercy, it is free grace, that saves; sovereignty holds the scale of love; it is justice holds the other scale. Who can put that into the hand of sovereignty? That were to libel God and to dishonour him;

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0239.htm

cygnusx1 · Oct 3, 2005

Jon_ said:
Don't stop reading at v. 36, cyg.
(Lam. 3:37, 38 AV) Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? 38) Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Let's not forget this verse, either:
(Prv. 16:4 AV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Or this one:
(Rev. 16:9 AV) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Yes, that is true. But that doesn't mean that God is desirous that all be saved.

The problem with your position is you have neither scriptural support nor logical support for your arguments. All you have is how you feel about God. You feel that God is loving toward all men, doubtless based on those passages which talk about the infinite love of God, but you have made inferences where there is no justification for them. God does not desire the repentance of the reprobate, else he would effect it. To argue otherwise is to argue that God is duplicitous, desperately desiring the reprobate to repent, but denying them the regeneration that would enable it.

There is just simply no basis for this belief.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

jon . we have been through this before , and I have shown you that God desires you to be perfect , for God commands it , should you say God commands what He doesn't desire , it is you , not me who makes God act with dulpicity!

H/Calvinist's confuse the results of God's interactions with His intentions.

Do you need a long list of Reformed Christians throughout history who openly support The Gospel offer , all the Puritans, do you need me to begin quoting the Reformers to show you how far you have drifted ?

If so , just say the word!

5solas · Oct 3, 2005

Jon_ said:
Perhaps. But this would just be another excellent example of coercing an interpretation out of the text. This verse says nothing of God's reluctance to judge. It does not even say that God wants all men to repent. It says that God's kindness, forbearance, and long-suffering ought to lead men to repentance. God's love and kindness toward men ought (that is, morally obligates) to cause them to repent. That is precisely what the verse says. To argue that it goes farther than that is to commit a logical blunder and engage in eisegesis.

I agree with you. Man ought to repent but nevertheless OUR job does not only consist of "hellfire-preaching":

2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Of course this news is only for the elect - but WE do not know which are the elect - only God knows; so we have to preach this to everyone we meet.

I also agree that nowadays one hears too little about damnation and hell and a good presentation of the Gospel must include the message of eternal damnation (no question about that) but one must be careful not to become unbalanced either. We must keep on the middle of the road....

Is God active at all in the reprobate?

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