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All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...
Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?
What do you believe?
Use the "Reply" feature...so we know who you are responding to.Apparently you have trouble with anyone questioning the"faithful." Well, that's exactly what I do. I don't assume that just because a person says they believe in God or hold with a certain tradition means that they are right. Many believers, when challenged, will ask what business you have questioning God, as you seem to be doing. But, in reality, it is not God that is questioned, but your understanding of God. What says you have a monopoly on God? What I like about the world of biblical scholarship is that it enables us to check things out. All you have claimed here is that you think your belief system is above and beyond reproach and therefore shouldn't be criticized. Also, you seem to think that all scholars faith, which is also a dangerous assumption. Hence, I fail to be impressed with your argument. I wish I only had a nickel for every time I have heard this line of BS coming from the right-wing anti-intellectual branch of the church, which has no respect for scholarship, no real background in modern biblical studies, and generally takes an attitude of anyone with over and eighth-grade education, back of the pews. You need to do a better job of it or get out of the business of apologetics.
False, since Today remains the 6th Day of Creation.
Open Heart said: ↑
All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...
Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?
What do you believe?
Bob, it is true that science does a lot of guessing or speculating. That is definitely part of the learning process. True, no one was around to see the Big Bang. And it is also true that no one was around to see God creating in six days either Religion also entails speculation.
The difference4 is that science is compelled to present more-telling physical evidence.
So I don't see the evolutionary position as mere "blind faith. There is considerable hard data to back it. "
If you tried telling a scientist he or she is going on blind faith, they would probably respond by saying like, "Funny thing. We see you guys as guilty of blind faith.
I do not have a "belief" system, I [know] what I know, and it agrees with what is written of God. It is not I that defend the faithful either (although I do), but God who defends them.True, Scott, the truth needs no defense. But it also true that one's belief system does. Why should I tae your word for it, that you know anything about God? Who says your belief in God or understanding of the Bible is correct? You don't lie the "faithful" being questioned, but we are all fallible and should check each other out. That' what I like about the scholarly approach; you need to check things out, make a solid case, which you have yet to do. Instead, you just complain about the faithful being unduly picked on because they are being challenged by all these dangerous scholars.
As for "What the text says" --
Hebrew scholars of standing have always regarded this to be the case. Thus, Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:
‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’
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Ex 20:11 "11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed THE Sabbath day and made it holy."
Ex 16 :23 "And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of THE Holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning."
Not according to God as we seen in His Words about that point stated above.
Exegesis my friend -- that is what we use to interpret the text.
The assumptions and inferences that modern science pours into the observations is nature are simply that - guesswork. Can God be "blamed for man's guesswork"?
Many would say that blaming God for the errors of man's guesswork is not logical.
Imagine if we could "blame God" for Othaniel Marsh's "guesswork" on horse evolution still on display at the Smithsonian and now declared to be a "sequence that never happened in nature". A smooth transitional sequence "arranged to tell a story' with emotional effect for the viewer - but totally fabricated in terms of "observations in nature" as to what is actually found at the various rock layers. (once held to be the premier evidence for blind faith evolutionism).
-- God is not simply "guessing". Rather "He did it" and no need to "Guess"
I agree that evolution is its own religion and that neither Creationists - nor Evolutionists "were there" for the events in question. But God was. And He is fully capable of telling us what He was doing -- that much is beyond question. Both sides may be able to see that point.
So when Osborn holds up the tooth of a Pecary as the wonderful proof for "Nebraska man" that is "more telling physical evidence"??
Sounds more like a house of cards!
The fraud and hoax riddle belief system of blind faith evolutionism - discredits itself in revelation after revelation of hoaxes and frauds carried on for decade after decade as 'the BEST evidence" for evolution.
Is that what you also see in the Bible account for origins??
Their own fellow atheist evolutionists admit to it.
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Collin Patterson (atheist and diehard evolutionist to the day he died in 1998) - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history speaking at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 - said:
Patterson - quotes Gillespie's arguing that Christians
"'...holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'"
Patterson countered, "That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact (saying):'Yes it has...we know it has taken place.'"
"...Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that's true of me, and I think it's true of a good many of you in here...
"...,Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge , apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics..."
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One more among many "little things" that evolutionists do not share when discussing this point with Creationists
Depends on what you mean by guesswork. There's "guessing" what's in the bag. And then there are conclusions based on evidence, sometimes overwhelming evidence as in the case of an old earth.Many would say that blaming God for the errors of man's guesswork is not logical.
Then it should be easy for you the explain the following:
Has mankind EVER had dominion or rule over every living creature as Gen 1:28 states? Has there EVER been a time in the past when ALL living creatures ate green herbs for meat as Gen 1:30 states?
Is God STILL creating mankind in His Image or in Christ Spiritually, Today?
The answer to these questions will identify the Fact that we continue to live today at the end of the 6th Day of Creation. Amen?
The Bible says that happened - but if you are asking if I "have the video of that period of time in ancient history" - well we all know I have no video player that can play it.
One of the reasons why Genesis is confusing to many is that, in point of fact, it starts our giving two highly contradictor versions of creation, each composed in different historical period. The other problem is the creation myth or myths are very brief and say very little about creation. That makes it very different from other religions that saw God or the gods as revealed in and through nature, and they had creation myths going out volumes. To the ancient Hebrews God's major revelation was in history, not nature. True they affirmed God as creator as well as savior, and therefore wrote Genesis to remind people that God is the creator, for only the creator can save you. But nature, creation was largely a secondary interest, with the primary focus on salvific acts in history. Check out the NT, it is clear that Christ helped change the course of world history. But ask youself, what did Christ on the cross do for dogs and cats and all the rest of nature? See what I mean?
Well,Amen, I don't think you have much of a case that those who see two conflicting accounts don't understand. In fact, they would come back and you are the one who does not understand Genesis because you have not done your homework. The finest literary analysis of the Bible is done by Germans and they have a reputation of being almost obsessively thorough, which is why up to the end of WW2, they dominated the world of science, especially analytic chemistry, and many other fields. Much research on the Bible, then, is written in German and much has not been translate. Pity us poor graduate students, who came in with no knowledge of German but had to pass a doozy of a transition exam on some work in German, so that the profs can throw at you all sorts of books, articles, etc., in German and expect that you will read them ands o have loads of footless from German titles in your footnotes. Pity the poor American student who has to sit through a lecture by one of these visiting Germans. They are arrogant and they really push the notion that their "pure Teutonic scholarship" is totally superior to what is available in America. Arrogant a they are, they have a point. The Germans dominate in the literary analysis of Scripture. Why? Because they are so thorough. Believe me biblical research coming out of Germany is really solid stuff. Unfortunately, much is never translated. These Germans are real bean counters, believe you me. I mean they analyze Scripture right down to the smallest detail. Being o thorough, they tae into consideration all sorts of factors, the stated content of the text, the style of grammar, how subordinate clauses are handled in sentences, etc., the number of times a certain word appears, the spelling, the punctuation, etc.,etc. On and on it goes. Now, based on the solid literary analysis, which has been going on for about the last 150 years, it has been concluded that Gen. 2 was written long, long before Gen. 1, as well as the fact that no single author, not Moses, wrote the Pentateuch. So, I think it fair that it is you do not understand Genesis and, in the eyes of these Prussian-drill-master-type scholars, are just another lazy American urinating in a hurricane when it comes to biblical studies.False, since the first 34 verses of Genesis tell the ENTIRE Creation story including events which have NOT yet happened at the end of the present 6th Creative Day. There is ONLY 1 story of the Creation and those who see contradictions in Genesis One and Two are revealing that they CANNOT understand Genesis.
The problem is caused by those who follow the ancient religious account which does NOT agree with Scripture, Science nor History. This makes it possible for Godless Scientists and others to falsely teach our children that we are nothing but evolved Apes.
False, since the first 34 verses of Genesis tell the ENTIRE Creation story including events which have NOT yet happened at the end of the present 6th Creative Day. There is ONLY 1 story of the Creation and those who see contradictions in Genesis One and Two are revealing that they CANNOT understand Genesis.
The problem is caused by those who follow the ancient religious account which does NOT agree with Scripture, Science nor History. This makes it possible for Godless Scientists and others to falsely teach our children that we are nothing but evolved Apes.
Well,Amen, I don't think you have much of a case that those who see two conflicting accounts don't understand.
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