Is Genesis Literal?

Vance · Sep 16, 2003

Alessandro said:
It is clear my friend, to those who ask and know God to show them.

Ah, so what you are saying is that only those who happen to agree with your "obvious" answers are properly asking for guidance from God and getting it? Every other Christian in the world other than you and those who happen to believe the Bible on every point, is not as in-tune with God?

Are you serious?!

Do you not realize that sincere, Holy Spirit filled and led Christians who fall on their face before God and seek guidance and wisdom in the reading of the Word STILL come to different conclusions all the time?

I really can't believe your arrogance.

Alessandro · Sep 16, 2003

Call it what you want my friend, everyone decides for himself, who and what he believes and follows.

The Word of God is made so that everyone could understand it, but nevertheless it is not for everyone, because not everyone accepts it for what it is.

Sure, people have different conclusions, but dont you think that if they were both Spirit filled and led, that they would come up with different conclusions if the source was the same, if they took it for what it is, not modifying or altering it. There is only one God.

Vance · Sep 16, 2003

Alessandro said:
Sure, people have different conclusions, but dont you think that if they were both Spirit filled and led, that they would come up with different conclusions if the source was the same, if they took it for what it is, not modifying or altering it. There is only one God.

Wow. You really, honest-to-God, are saying that everyone who does not agree with you on all the myriad of interpretive issues is not Spirit filled and led.

And, of course, since there is probably no one who believes exactly as you do on *every* interpretation, you are IT. You are the only Christian truly filled with the Spirit and led by Him.

This really is amazing.

Alessandro · Sep 16, 2003

What are you going on about? Relax Vance. Stop jumping into conclusions and making assumptions like that man, its not good for you.

Vance · Sep 16, 2003

Hey, you are the one making these claims, not me. When you start going around saying that other Christians are not Spirit-filled and led if they don't see the Scripture the way you do, what do you expect?

It really is an extreme statement to make, and I think my reaction is a bit tame by comparison.

Alessandro · Sep 16, 2003

I did not say that you are assuming things. The Bible is clear about all what God says. When God says He created the world in days, I believe and take it for what it is and says. A day is a day, not a thousand year peroid or whatever. When God said the Flood was global, I take it for what it is. When God says Jesus is His Son, I believe and take it for what it is. No reason to complicate.

Vance · Sep 16, 2003

Alessandro said:
I did not say that you are assuming things. The Bible is clear about all what God says. When God says He created the world in days, I believe and take it for what it is and says. A day is a day, not a thousand year peroid or whatever. When God said the Flood was global, I take it for what it is. When God says Jesus is His Son, I believe and take it for what it is. No reason to complicate.

First of all, you did, indeed, say that those who don't see the clear meaning of Scripture (as you do) are not truly Spirit-filled and led. If you want to retract that, fine, but don't say you didn't say it.

Second, the Bible is, indeed, pretty clear about what it's ultimate message, but it is anything but clear in all its details. Let's take those few things (among the thousands of interpretive issues Christians face).

Days: God did not say He created in days. He said He created in "Yoms". This word YOM has a number of meanings, just like a lot of words in English. One of these meanings is that of an extended, but indefinite period of time. Another meaning is a 24-hour period of time. Which is it here? This is anything but clear. True, it might read "clear" in English, and this is, indeed, where much of the problem lies.

Global Flood: See my thread on this a while back, but you will see that there are very solid arguments in the text itself (not even looking at the vast evidence of God's Creation) that the flood was very likely not global. Again, not crystal clear by a long shot.

What you are doing is "simply believing" either the most simplistic surface reading of the text or what people tell you it says. Neither is a solid way to reach the true meaning of the Bible.

Alessandro · Sep 16, 2003

I didn't, you assume I did.

Yom is day, no one can say anything but that. The same word is used throughout the Bible and means the same thing.

In regards to the Flood, God is clear about it being global. If it weren't He would have said it were local, regional.

I believe what the Word of God says, not what anyone else says. I believe for my own. And trust me, it is not just "simply believing" and neither is it "simplistic surface reading".

God Bless.

Let me ask you something, are you a Christian who believes in the Word of God?

Vance · Sep 16, 2003

Alessandro said:
I didn't, you assume I did.

Yom is day, no one can say anything but that. The same word is used throughout the Bible and means the same thing.

In regards to the Flood, God is clear about it being global. If it weren't He would have said it were local, regional.

I believe what the Word of God says, not what anyone else says. I believe for my own. And trust me, it is not just "simply believing" and neither is it "simplistic surface reading".

God Bless.

Let me ask you something, are you a Christian who believes in the Word of God?

Absolutely, I believe it is the holy, and wholly true Word of God to mankind.

As for YOM meaning only a 24-hour period, I think you had better check on that one. I think you will readily find that it is used to mean a number of other things. Look it up and get back to me on that one.

As for the flood, the word he used for the "whole earth" is "kol erets". This phrase is used in the Bible 205 times. Only about 35 or 40 of those times does it mean the entire planet. the other 160 or so times it is used, it means a local region or a specific group of people. And, there is actually a word which means ONLY the entire planet: tebel. This word is used 37 times in the OT, but it is NEVER used in the flood accounts. If God had meant to be clear that it was the entire planet, He could have used tebel. He didn't.

As for your statement, here is what you said:

1. The Bible is entirely clear to me, the meaning is obvious.

2. The Bible is also clear and obvious to anyone who is Spirit-filled and led.

3. The reason there are so many different interpretations of Scripture that people fight about is because not all of them are led by the Spirit.

4. If two people are filled with the Spirit and led by the Spirit, they will absolutely arrive at the same conclusion regarding interpretation.

So, which of these did you NOT say? Because if you add them up, it is saying that it is clear to you, and those who interpret every scripture the same as you are not filled with and led by the Spirit.

Alessandro · Sep 16, 2003

I did not say that to the meaning you perceived anyway. God made it so that it could be understood by anybody. People have disagreements, over meanings and interpretations, we will all soon know which was the most correct one. To accept it as what it is as what God says, or to make our own conclusions, modifications and assumptions as what it might and could mean. No need to complicate it and use our intelligence over God's. If one choses not to accept it for what it is in one part, that could very well mean that the same could be applied to other parts of the Bible and God's Word. That I do not accept. I choose God's wisdom over mine.

My friend, I know other languages besides English, one of which has the word yom in it, which means day.

If it did not mean the whole earth, God would not have said it. It would also mean partial judgement.

We have our disagrements there unfortunatly.

To tell you the truth, that would not really affect any of us as to how we interpret God's Word, we accept Jesus Christ and we have the Holy Spirit in us and we know who and where we belong.
God gave us free will and a mind, everybody is entitled to their believes and interpretations, whether it be right or wrong or whatever. I chose to take God's Word for what it is. Some others may want a different explanation and interpretation.

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

Your last paragraph above is finally getting the point: none of this is a salvation issue, and there are a number of different interpretations that Spirit-filled and led Christians can arrive at. It is, indeed, a matter of free will. If God had wanted to make sure that all Christians believed exactly the same thing, He could definitely have written it in such a way, or He could allow His Spirit to direct a single over-riding interpretation. But, He didn't.

The phrase I still object to is you "take God's word for what it is." This is still acting as if there was one clear meaning which you accept, and the rest are looking for more obtuse and complicated readings. This is not true. You are taking God's word how you take it, that is all.

As for YOM, please look at this issue. Are you saying that a 24-hour period is the only way it is used in the Bible?

As for the flood, I am not sure what you mean. God used a word that does NOT always mean the whole earth, so why do we start with the assumption that He meant the whole earth? He used a word that is used the vast majority of the time to mean a specific region or land, or a specific people and NOT the whole earth. As I said, there is a very specific word He could have used to mean the whole Earth, without causing any confusion: tebel. If He had wanted to say the entire planet, why did He not do so with the best word for that meaning?

As for the partial judgment, the Scripture makes clear that the judgment against all the people in "the land" was complete. Some read this to mean that all humanity was still in a specific region, others read this to mean that all those who lived in "the land" were destroyed. Either works fine with the text, but the latter is more likely based on what we know from archeology about the spread of mankind around the time of the flood. Either way, the concept of a total judgment for those God identifies for judgment carries the exact same meaning as a total world flood.

See my thread on the Scriptural analysis of the local flood a while back.

streddog · Sep 17, 2003

I take the Bibke literaly. I just can't understand why God would give us a book that contains all of the knowledge of him that we have and make it allegory. Why would He give us something that we could misinterpret? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

Well, there is no doubt about one thing: He DID give us a book which can be misinterpreted. That is an absolute, 100% certainty.

If you have two people reading a text, and they come to two different conclusions, then one of them is misinterpreting it (or both of them, but at least one). Since this happens all the time in the Bible, it is without doubt a book that can, and is, misinterpreted all the time.

What's more, it is interpreted differently (and thus misinterpreted by at least one) by those who think they are simply reading the Bible literally. Yes, Bible-believing, Holy Spirit filled and Holy Spirit led Christians read the Scriptures and STILL come to different beliefs about what it says.

Why did God do this? I can't be sure, but there it is.

Alessandro · Sep 17, 2003

Salvation issue aside, the Bible is clear about what it means, not all may agree but that is what it is.

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

OK, again you are making a very odd statement here, and I am really trying to grasp exactly what you are saying.

You say that the Scripture is clear, yet you say that not all agree as to what it means. This means it is not clear. If it is clear, then by definition there would be no room for differences.

This makes no sense. Clear means obvious to those who read it. But, when those who read it come to different conclusions about what it means, how can it be clear?

You are really going to have to explain this position in more detail.

Alessandro · Sep 17, 2003

The Word of God is clear, and people have a choice to make regarding it.

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

OK, I give up. If you want to stick with your evasive non-answer, that is fine. I don't have the time to mess with it anymore and everyone can see that you are just avoiding dealing with the implications of what you are saying.

Alessandro · Sep 17, 2003

I dont see the need for complicating things.

Plan 9 · Sep 17, 2003

streddog said:
I take the Bibke literaly. I just can't understand why God would give us a book that contains all of the knowledge of him that we have and make it allegory. Why would He give us something that we could misinterpret? It just doesn't make sense to me.

But, streddof, allegory is very easy to understand, just as metaphors and similies are.

Here's one: a man found a treasure buried in a field. He took all his money and bought the field.
Did you have any trouble with that when you read it in the New Testament?

Ark Guy · Sep 18, 2003

The scripture is clear..it's the Theo=Evo sect that clouds things up.

Take YOM for example...Vance asked if a 24-hour period is the only way it is used in the Bible.

The answer is no..BUT..when you bracket it with the terms evening and morning, you make it into a literal day.

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