Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I have an answer, but I would like input).

Bible Highlighter said:

Several problems here on your interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:12.

Problem #1. - You are not reading and believing this verse at face value. It says FIGHT the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life. So think about the word “fight.” Does that sound like you do nothing? No. Of course not. We fight the good fight is tied to the truth that says: “we lay hold on eternal life.” Final eternal life in being “glorified” (i.e. being taken home to be with the Lord). For it is why a particular church was told to be faithful unto death and they would be given the crown of life (Revelation 2:10).

Problem #2. - You say that this is dealing with the context of pursuing riches of this world like false teachers. This is true. Paul says, “you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.” (1 Timothy 6:11). So if “I flee chasing after riches and follow or chase after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, etc.” am I not doing something? Is not my fleeing riches and following after righteousness and godliness (holy living) an action in some way? Am I doing nothing by doing this? Surely not. So this is a part of the good fight of faith in laying hold on eternal life. I have to be faithful unto death so as to receive the crown of life. Faithful not in just in having a mental acknowledgement of the Savior. For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). So your bringing in the context about riches only helps to prove my case by our obeying the Lord, and it does not prove your case in doing nothing.

Problem #3. - You also fail to look at the context of 1 Timothy 6:3-4. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says, “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,...”;

Not sure if you caught it or not, but Paul is saying that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Is a proud man saved? Well, according to James 4:6, it says: God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble. Think about that for a moment. The person who does not agree with godly living according to God's Word knows nothing and they are proud. Is a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved agreeing with the doctrine of godliness or the words of Jesus Christ? Well, when I tell other Christians today about Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, many of them say that those words do not exactly apply to them. In other words, they are not agreeing with the words of Jesus. Paul said that a man who does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness is proud and he knows nothing. Let that sink in, brother.

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sawdust said:

That's the supernatural gift of faith, completely different to your everyday garden variety of faith. The gift requires no knowledge/learning (ie.hearing the Word Rom.10:17) It was needed a lot more in the early days as the canon of (NT) scripture was not complete.

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Ramom said:

MMXX,

If I may intervene for a second, not trying to be on anyone's side on this, I believe that perhaps his approach and attempt of explaining his point isn't coming across right. The same with him not understanding your point either. That's why sometimes is better to find a common ground and then see where the road separates for the both of you and then discuss why? I'm not sensing brother here lol.

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MMXX said:

We've been at this quite a bit for quite a while. I agree that it would be better to discuss as bothers having a common ground, rather than as rivals. I don't think rivalry cancels out love, but it doesn't exactly promote it either lol.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Are you totally on fire for 1 Timothy 6:12? It's a part of God's Word. What do you think it says?

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Ramom said:

I know you 2 have been at it, I been reading it with popcorn lol.

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Bible Highlighter said:

But how can one be chastised if one does not accept the Bible's standard on sin and salvation?

For if I recall my previous conversation with you correctly: You believe 1 John 1:9 is dealing with Initial Salvation when in reality it is a thing that a believer can potentially do on rare occasion after being saved by God's grace because only past sin is forgiven us and not future sin. For if future sin was forgiven us, then we would treat God's grace as a license to sin (on some level), or we would not be broken up about our sin and the evil that it truly causes. But more importantly Jesus warned us about how sin can lead to punishment in the afterlife. For Jesus us in Matthew 5:28-30 that looking upon a woman in lust is enough for a person to be in danger of hellfire. Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Matthew 12:37 says that if we can be condemned by our words. Luke 9:62 says, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life. The list goes on and on. Salvation is more than just having a belief alone in Jesus Christ.

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MMXX said:

I think Godly faith in any form has a supernatural element. Many hear the word and don't have faith. There are atheists who know the bible better than a lot of Christians. But what they don't have is the indwelling of Holy Spirit. Hebrews 1:11 tells us that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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Ramom said:

Could you elaborate the difference between one faith and another?

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Bible Highlighter said:

God knows my heart, my thoughts, and my intentions and my conscience is clean. There was no ill will towards you at all. God commands me to love everyone. I hate the false belief and not any person. You can see wrong in my contending for the faith if you wish, but God knows all things and I cannot hide from Him. For if I do wrong, I know God will bring it to my attention, and I naturally confess and forsake such a sin, and pray for the Lord to protect me against such an evil.

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I have found that if something is important enough to a person, they make the time. For me, discussing God's Word is a delight, and a privilege. Jude 1:3 says, “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” But for me: It comes natural to do so. I suppose it is because I like fighting the good fight (1 Timothy 6:12).

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The Bible may appear to be overwhelming for some to read, but that does not mean we give up in reading it. The majority of what I provide is Scripture verses. They are God's words. Surely they should be a delight for you to study, and not a burden.

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I strive to make everything that I write to a person using God's Word. I want to have less of me, and more of the Lord. The Lord offended many because of His words.

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There are different levels of those who believe they can sin and still be saved.

Some believe you can sin like the devil with no restrictions whatsoever and still be saved. I have encountered these kinds of Christians both online and in person.

Some believe you must generally live holy (whatever that means), but they do not think one or two serious sins (like lusting after women, or lying, or cussing, etc.) will keep them out of God's kingdom.

There are those who deny Eternal Security or OSAS but they also believe that no sin can separate them from God, and that God will simply chastise them at some point. When? Who knows. But they do not regard sin in the same way Jesus and His followers regard sin in that they warned how certain sins can cause a loss of salvation (Unless one repents of such a sin). Generally Free Will Baptists hold to this kind of belief.

You basically admitted to me before that if a believer generally lived a holy life and they lusted after a woman and then immediately got hit by a bus and died, they would be saved. This to me is turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Why? Because the moment we start excusing one sin, then we start excusing another, and another, etc. Granted, I am not saying God would actually just toss out a believer in a situation like this. I believe God would give a believer many chances to get His act together if he struggled with looking at women. But the point here is that one sin can destroy a believer's soul. We seen it happen with Ananias and Sapphira. They each lied to the Spirit and they were each killed. They did not end up in Heaven. For a great fear came upon the church when they heard about what happened. This is a truth that I am begging you to see in the Scriptures. It's not a happy truth, but it is none the less, the truth of what His Word says.

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sawdust said:

Knowing what the Bible says and understanding what it means and relating to it are not the same thing. There is a lot more than not having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

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In fact, even OT believers didn't have that.

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We know that the "gift of faith" is different to having faith because the gift is only given to some. If it were the faith needed to please God it would be given to all believers.

The Hebrews 11 faith is the faith needed to live by each day and the reason it is absolute is because faith comes from the Word and the Word is absolute.

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Bible Highlighter said:

Well, first, I am referring to the work of faith in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11, and not your average ordinary works in general that men do. The work of faith is anything that the Bible specifically tells you to do like preach the gospel, help the poor, feed the sheep, etc.; Preaching the gospel, helping the poor, feeding the sheep is all based on love of your neighbor. If we love the lost, we will tell them about our Lord and His saving plan of salvation in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. If we love our neighbor, we will do what we can to help those in need. If we love the brethren, we will desire to feed them God's Word and to edify one another.

Second, when I refer to how you believe that no works is needed in your belief system: Well, I am referring to how you think works is not salvific. For if you think works is not salvific, then there really is not need to do any works because they are simply extra credit. They serve no real purpose of you entering the kingdom and so they are just bonus points. They really are not required because they do not save. A person can easily be led to believe that you are teaching a “doing nothing at all” kind of belief if you tell them that works do not save. However, you fail to understand that the “work of faith” is a part of the “faith;” Just as the “work of the Lord” is a part of “the Lord.”

Three, I believe God ultimatley does the good work through the believer by their faith and trust in the Lord (See: John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).



And why would I do such a thing?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

“Faithful are the wounds of a friend;...” (Proverbs 27:6).



Remember, Jesus told a church that was lukewarm that He would spew them out of His mouth.
We are either obeying the Lord or we are our own lords and masters. We cannot serve two masters. We need to truly choose this day in whom we will serve. For it is more than just works (i.e. the work of faith). It is holiness. Holy living is also a part of the faith. For we are commanded to be holy in God's Word. So a believer cannot justify the idea that they can commit serious sin (grievous sin) on some level, and still be saved. God cannot agree with serious sin that He condemns with warnings of hellfire or condemnation in His own Word. Remember, those who did wonderful works in Christ's name were told to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (sin). This is why the Lord did not know them. This ties in to 1 John 2:3-4.

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Bible Highlighter said:

It is true that Jesus is eternal life. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life. What you fail to understand is that 1 John 2:3 says, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” You also do not understand that 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

In your version of fighting the good fight of faith, you see it as a continuing to believe in Jesus. But Jesus also warned in Matthew 7:26-27 that if any man does not do what He says, He is like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So fighting the good fight of faith is indeed doing what the Lord says. In context, this is what is in view in 1 Timothy chapter 6. For if a man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). We are to flee earthly riches and follow after righteousness and godliness instead. These all involve some form of action on our part. These things are all a part of the faith. Fight the good fight of faith. It's a good fight. Standing up for that which is righteous and good by the Lord's Word and not justifying that which is wrong and or evil. For that is what a belief alone for salvation eventually leads to. It leads to one doing whatever one likes on some level. But I will fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life. You can keep just believing in Jesus alone if you like, and shoot down those who desire to obey God's Word as a part of the faith. But I will trust His Word in what it says (even if it does not make for me many friends).

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