Is Everybody going to heaven?

DeborahsSong said:

Great Question!! Death is a state of separation from God, who is our life. When the last son of Adam repents and turns to God, receiving the atoning work of the cross, then at that moment death is abolished. There is no more dead, since all have become alive and are new creatures in Christ. The last enemy is destroyed and Christ delivers the kingdom to the Father who becomes the all in all. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all are made alive" 1 Cor 15:22.

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This is false interpretation and not taught in Scripture but only by some men. It is a lie of Satan that all men are saved.

Originally Posted by brinny
It is not speaking of goats who claim something that they have not been given legitimately, but are attempting to claim something from a holy God that is not theirs to claim, do you not realize this?

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Tavita said:

sorry, getting myself in a tangle here...

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what tangle are you speaking of Tavita?

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God.

Yekcidmij said:

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Not everyone is a sheep. Some are goats.




Then you are claiming to be on par with scripture. Your words, you claim, are scripture. Forgive me for not jumping on that boat right away.



Amen. God is a Warrior and a jealous lover.




That's not the orthodox teaching I'm aquainted with. That's unorthodox and quite frankly pagan. Pagans would be the ones to try to entice the gods into action by repeating some mantra. What matters is a changed heart and that is orthodoxy.



The thing is, if God is both omnipotent and omniscient, He could have known that if the person made it to the meeting, He wouldn't have believed anyway. Of course even this lies on the underlying attitude that we can question God's Sovreignty. God is Sovreign, He gives life and kills, He heals and wounds, and if He sees fit to bring someone to His court for judgment, that's His perogative as Sovreign.



You imply they didn't have mercy. They did have mercy but they chose justice instead. Mercy is God's to give as He sees fit. If God doesn't grant mercy, that's His perogative as Sovreign. You think that God is required to give mercy. That is not the case. It's merciful that God allows anyone forgiveness in the first place. God was well within His character to execute justice to everyone and consign everyone to the second death. How often we forget that.

And the imagery of demons poking people with pitchforks and laughing like a freak show is a relic of Dante and reflected in modern films and is not accurate.




There seems to be an underlying assumption here. You seem to think all the saints are to spend eternity as spirits in a place called heaven. That is not the case. Death is a curse according to the bible, not a blessing. The saints will be resurrected and live bodily on earth. The non-saints will not. That is a fundamental difference. Not everyone is raised from the dead. Those who are dead cannot choose Messiah simply because they are dead and unable to.

You also put God's Mercy over and above His Justice. In either/both instances, God is glorified and is righteous in His decision. He has mercy on whoever He wants to have mercy on. That's His perogative as Sovreign. If He only wants to raise from the dead those that are in Christ, that is His perogative, and it is merciful that He even provides that in the first place.

God's original design for us was to reflect His image. Those who choose to worship something other than God choose to reflect the image of the object they worship. To be a true human is to bear the image of God as designed to. Those who do not want to reflect the image of God will cease to be truly human. Those who God has not renewed do not reflect His image and are not raised from the dead. The bible describes this as fire and brimstone, but let's not forget that is a description and imagery of those who are not raised from the dead. The ultimate hope for the Christian is to be raised from the dead as Christ was raised from the dead and given a new life to bear the image of God as we were originally designed to. Those who are not in the Messiah are not raised from the dead. There is no second chance simply because they are dead and not alive.

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Amen, and thank you, brother!

Floatingaxe said:

Amen, and thank you, brother!

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i second that! Amen!

Yekcidmij said:

Does Paul think all men are "in Messiah"? No. What does Paul think it means to be "in Messiah"? He tips us off in the very next verse:

15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.


Always read in context. Does Paul think all men are "in Messiah" and that all men belong to Messiah? Nope.

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This is the problem---they don't read anything in context.

chaela said:

No, that doesn't answer my question. Where are the verses that say, unequivocally, that "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation"? I realize that there is a segment of Christianity that interprets the above verses through a love-Me-or-else lense, but what I'm looking for are verses that say, inarguably, "most will die in unbelief and miss their salvation." Can you provide me with those? Thanks again! .

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Matthew 7:13-14
“You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

chaela said:

Yes, the Old Testament, which doesn't say anything about eternal torment. In fact, if ET is what God taught, He would have been lying when He said such a thing never crossed His mind in Jeremiah 32:35.

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God curses. He warns countless times in the OT. His curses are forever, and only faith in Jesus Christ can erase them.

The WoF is not a denomination, true, but it is a movement. Movements wield just as much influence over their members as denominations do.

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I am a Christian. No labels. My icon is chosen because the Statement of Faith best describes what I believe. Pigeon-holing is not appropriate here. At least it tells you that the Word of God is sole authority for me.

Now on to impersonal discussion, please!


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Sheep and Goats-Since there have been a few posts on this topic, I'm sharing this from Dr. Hanson's discussion about the catacombs in Rome. Most of the inscriptions/epitaphs there are from 150 AD to 410 AD, a few predate that period:

The principal device, scratched on slabs, carved on utensils and rings, and seen almost everywhere, is the Good Shepherd, surrounded by his flock and carrying a lamb. But most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at the early date regarded as the objects of the Savior's solicitude, after departing from this life.[SIZE=-2]13 (DeRossi, Northcote, Withrow, etc., on the Catacombs)[/SIZE]

chaela said:

The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!" (Galatians 3:13). So to be cursed isn't necessarily a permanent condition, given that Jesus, who outright became a curse in our place, is sitting in Heaven now, at the right hand of the Father..

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This is so revelatory of the ignorance that so pervades UR thinking. No understanding of Scripture. Yes, Jesus became the curse for us. But only those who accept His DIVINE EXCHANGE will receive salvation. No exchange, no entrance to the Kingdom.

DeborahsSong said:

Sheep and Goats-Since there have been a few posts on this topic, I'm sharing this from Dr. Hanson's discussion about the catacombs in Rome. Most of the inscriptions/epitaphs there are from 150 AD to 410 AD, a few predate that period:

The principal device, scratched on slabs, carved on utensils and rings, and seen almost everywhere, is the Good Shepherd, surrounded by his flock and carrying a lamb. But most striking of all, he is found with a goat on his shoulder; which teaches us that even the wicked were at the early date regarded as the objects of the Savior's solicitude, after departing from this life.[SIZE=-2]13 (DeRossi, Northcote, Withrow, etc., on the Catacombs)[/SIZE]

Matthew Arnold has preserved this truth in his immortal verse:[SIZE=-2]14 (14 A suggestive thought in this connection is, that our Lord (Matt. xxv. 33), calls those on his left hand "kidlings," "little kids," a term for tenderness and regard.)[/SIZE]


"He saves the sheep, the goats he doth not save!"
So rang Tertullian's sentence on the side
of that unpitying Phrygian sect which cried,--
"Him can no fount of fresh forgiveness lave,
Whose sins once washed by the baptismal wave!"
So spake the fierce Tertullian. But she sighed,
The infant Church,--of love she felt the tide
Stream on her from her Lord's yet recent grave,
And then she smiled, and in the Catacombs,
With eyes suffused but heart inspired true,
On those walls subterranean, where she hid
Her head in ignominy, death and tombs,
She her Good Shepherd's hasty image drew
And on his shoulders not a lamb, a kid!

This picture is a "distinct protest" against the un-Christian sentiment then already creeping into the church from Paganism."​

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hmmm....not sure what point you are making except that there may have been resentment towards what Christ made clear.....that one must be His sheep to be shepherded by Him? That He is a protector of the sheep, and the goats resent that? That anyone who attempts to gain entry where He gathers His sheep, gets bopped with His staff?

This looks to be the epitome of why a goat is a goat. They do their own thang. Then they weave resentment because they are in the spot they're in in spite of the fact that they got there of their own choosing...and they will not bend their knee, acknowledging Jesus the Christ as Lord and Master...and so someone comes along and says...hey, that's not right....why are ya pickin' on the poor goats...aren't they as worthy of the goodness of God? And the answer is "no". The goats never intended to love Jesus the Christ nor God, their Creator in their heart. They just want the benefits, not Him. They do not seek God's face.

chaela said:

They are made alive again (1 Corinthians 15:22, Romans 5).
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Not true.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

There is no thrid resurrection. Anyone who proposes that the dead shall return to life from this point is fantasizing and acting in the role of false teacher.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.



Harsh words, but true, telling us how God feels about those who have the brazen gall to teach another way to God...


2 Peter 2:12

These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed.

chaela said:

The translation you used above (which version is that, by the way?) is not true to the original language.

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

In the original Greek, it makes a direct comparison between all dying in Adam and all being made alive in Christ.

The Greek words for "even so" are "kai houtō(s)", and literally mean "and, also, even, indeed, but" and "in this manner, thus, so" respectively.

So the correct interpretation of that verse is that in the same manner all died in Adam, all (the same "all") will be made alive again in Christ. Both our dying in Adam and our being made alive again in Christ were decisions made at a higher level, without our vote on the matter.

Once again, man must step off the pedestal and let God have it. We are not as much in control of these things as we sometimes like to think

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Totally false interpretation. So sad, because it's either accept the truth or continue to believe the lie. It is only pride that keeps one in the lie.

Punishment for teaching false doctrine should give one pause. What a tragedy.

Sheep and Goats
Rev. G. C. Hammond

When I was 14 years old I went with my best friend, Dave, to spend a weekend on a farm which his brother, Tom, was managing. It was an interesting and divergent experience from my suburban life!

Early in the afternoon, Tom sent us out to herd in the sheep which had been let out to pasture (as I think of it now, compared to sheep I’ve seen around here, these were very small sheep). As we lazily walked along, we paused by a willow tree and we each plucked a long switch with which to duel.

As we walked around behind the sheep we started to move them back toward the pen. They seemed to understand the routine and went willingly, if not quickly. We walked ahead to the gate, and stood there calling in the sheep. They picked up speed as they approached the gate and trotted through. We “helped” them along by tapping them on the backside with our switches as they went past.

Every once in a while we’d catch sight of a little goat in with the sheep herd. While in the process of “helping” the sheep with our switches, and not really paying much attention as we talked, Dave “helped” the backside of one of the little goats, who stopped dead in its tracks and looked at us with a menacing look. We started to back up and the goat charged us! Fortunately, these goats were so small that we were able to absorb his attempts to butt us by putting up the sole of our boots, and allowing him to crash into them. But that goat chased us all the way back to barn, and slammed one last time into the door as we shut it in its face on its final charge!

We told Tom about the experience, and he said, “Oh, yea. I forgot to tell you about that. The goats like to run with the sheep. But the goats are not sheep. They will not be shepherded.”

That experience comes back to me every time I read the words of Jesus: “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats” (Matt. 25:31-32).

The Son of Man, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, has appointed undershepherds to shepherd his sheep, the pastors and elders of the Church. But sometimes in among the sheep are goats. In a herd, they’ll hardly be noticed. They like to run with the sheep, but they are not sheep. And the difference can be seen just precisely in this: whereas sheep like to be shepherded, goats resent and resist being shepherded.

Which leads to a question: How would you respond if one of the elders asked you questions about your spiritual life? About what struggles you were having? About what areas of sin you wrestle with? What if he inquired as to whether you were forgiving others as God has forgiven you? What if one of the elders opened the Word of God to give you counsel without asking him to? What if ever the elders came to you and said, “We need to talk to you about a concern that we have regarding your spiritual well-being,” or about your behavior; or something that you’re doing that is having a negative effect on your brothers and sisters? What would your response be? Would you exhibit a meek joy at being shepherded, or resentment, anger and resistance? In other words, would you show the nature of a sheep, or a goat?

The question is not insignificant. Goats may enjoy running with the sheep for now, partaking in the benefits of the flock. They may cause only minor disturbance to the flock, even while causing great heartache to the Master’s shepherds (Heb. 13:17), who must endure the pain of getting “butted” every time they try to shepherd the goat in the sheepfold. But goats will not get to stay in the flock forever. When the Son of Man comes, he has very different destinations in mind for the then-segregated sheep and goats.

It is the job of shepherds to shepherd. But to effectively shepherd requires the presence of sheep. As Tom said, “Goats can’t be shepherded.” So what about you? Are you a sheep, or a goat?

1 Peter 5:1-11: So I exhort the elders among you,
as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed:
2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,
not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;
not for shameful gain, but eagerly;
3 not domineering over those in your charge,
but being examples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd appears,
you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders.
Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another,
for "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
6 Humble yourselves, therefore,
under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,
7 casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.
8 Be sober-minded; be watchful.
Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion,
seeking someone to devour.
9 Resist him, firm in your faith,
knowing that the same kinds of suffering
are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.
10 And after you have suffered a little while,
the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ,
will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

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In addition to my earlier post on 1 Cor 15:22, which was basically a quote from Barnes' Notes on the Greek construction, I'd add this thought: For Christ to be deserving of the title "last Adam", there must be an inclusion of all in "first Adam". If not, it would be akin to saying "lower case alphabet", and "upper case alphabet", and leaving most of the letters out of the latter. With letters missing, it wouldn't be an alphabet.

DeborahsSong said:

In addition to my earlier post on 1 Cor 15:22, which was basically a quote from Barnes' Notes on the Greek construction, I'd add this thought: For Christ to be deserving of the title "last Adam", there must be an inclusion of all in "first Adam". If not, it would be akin to saying "lower case alphabet", and "upper case alphabet", and leaving most of the letters out of the latter. With letters missing, it wouldn't be an alphabet.

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hmmm...so you say.

Floatingaxe said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYsClDclvf0

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Amen and amen!! May His truth arise. in the name of Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son of the living God...and may He claim this thread and shine His light and we say may it be so, in His name, the name above no other..and we say amen and amen!!!!

brinny said:

hmmm....not sure what point you are making except that there may have been resentment towards what Christ made clear.....that one must be His sheep to be shepherded by Him? That He is a protector of the sheep, and the goats resent that? That anyone who attempts to gain entry where He gathers His sheep, gets bopped with His staff?

This looks to be the epitome of why a goat is a goat. They do their own thang. Then they weave resentment because they are in the spot they're in in spite of the fact that they got there of their own choosing...and they will not bend their knee, acknowledging Jesus the Christ as Lord and Master...and so someone comes along and says...hey, that's not right....why are ya pickin' on the poor goats...aren't they as worthy of the goodness of God? And the answer is "no". The goats never intended to love Jesus the Christ nor God, their Creator in their heart. They just want the benefits, not Him. They do not seek God's face.

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Exerpt from:
http://www.blessingsinbaskets.com/faith-walk/?p=38

"...Goats are independent and can manage life on their own. Sheep, on the other hand, need the shepherd in order to survive. They depend on him the way God wants us to depend on Him.

From the window here I can see a flock of sheep. They belong to my sister-in-law’s brother. She told me that when the herder dog was killed, the sheep were nearly impossible to send through the gate. They simply refused until she stood in the gate and called to them. She was familiar to them; they knew her voice. When they saw her standing in the gate and heard her voice, they entered.

So it should be with us. We belong to the Good Shepherd. We are His — we belong to Him, we need His care, we know Him and He knows us. He stands in the gate and calls to us to come home to Him. How comforting it is to know that He is caring for us!"

enoch son said:

Death to a man is one thing death to God is another. As long as one thinks of death in the mind of a man one will never see the true nature of God. Death to God is life. "Dead in your sins" but where you not walking around alive? Jesus said "today you will be in paradise" So the body has nothing to do with death it is but dust. So does one ever die? I must say NO. What happean comes down to what you think paradise is.

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Ok but I'm referring to death being abolished and there being no more death. What happens to the dead? In revelation when it speaks about the last enemy being destroyed 'death'. What happens to those who haven't made it to heaven but are dead?

I'm thinking 'spiritual' here...I think