Is Everybody going to heaven?

Faulty · Sep 30, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
But He is.

Yup.

Acts 4:11-12
"This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

HEisGoodalways · Sep 30, 2008

DeborahsSong said:
God is preserving His word: Again, Dr Hanson:

"The submergence of Christian Universalism in the dark waters of Augustinian Christo-paganism, after having been the prevailing theology of Christendom for centuries, is one of the strange phenomena in the history of religious thought."

"The wonderful progress made during the first three centuries by the simple, pure and cheerful faith of early Christianity shows us what its growth might have been made had not the morose spirit of Tertullian, reinforced by the "dark shadow of Augustine," transformed it."

"Christianity was everywhere at first, a religion of 'sweetness and light.' The Greek fathers exemplified all these qualities, and Clement and Origen were ideals of its perfect spirit. But from Augustine downward the Latin reaction, prompted by the tendency of men in all ages to escape the exactions laid upon the soul by thought, and who flee to external authority to avoid the demands of reason, was away from the genius of Christianity, until Augustinianism ripened into Popery, and the beautiful system of the Greek fathers was succeeded by the nightmare of the theology of the medieval centuries, and later of Calvinism and Puritanism

" The resurrection of Universalism after an eclipse of a millennium of years is as remarkable as was its strange disappearance."

God gave the law, not with the expectation that man would be able to keep it, but as a testimony to man that he was incapable of obtaining salvation by works. Now we have a man-centered Christianity that distorts His word. Man calls the shots, not God. Man decides his eternal destiny. It is as if God exists for man, and not the other way around. Why did God allow such a thing to manifest itself? Now that it has, He can restore His word and get to be God again.

brinny · Sep 30, 2008

i do declare, i'm gettin' a yen to pray over this thread...

and my typing

but seriously, Jesus Himself says He is the only way to Father, our Abba....and there is none other.....

He should know, right?

Floatingaxe · Sep 30, 2008

brinny said:
i do declare, i'm gettin' a yen to pray over this thread...

and my typing

but seriously, Jesus Himself says He is the only way to Father, our Abba....and there is none other.....

He should know, right?

Yep. Seems there are some around here who think they know better than Jesus--that the cross is of no effect, and that God is an emotional basket case who will abandon His Word and become a liar and an unjust Judge and throw open heaven's gates for the unrepentant wicked.

I would never worship a God like that! Would you?

HEisGoodalways · Sep 30, 2008

TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB
The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages) (Rev. 20:10).
Notice please, in both instances, the subjects are tormented with fire and brimstone, and we have previously established what the fire and brimstone are. But Rev. 14:10 sheds further light, those are also tormented by and through another agency, which in reality sums up and constitutes the fire and brimstone, and that agency is THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB and the holy angels, or messengers. What an amazing divine paradox! The Lamb - precious embodiment of the very character of innocence, patience, meekness, gentleness, holiness, sacrifice, and redemption - being made TORMENT to men for whom He died! The very thought seems incongruous. You see, dear ones, IT IS NOT THE NATURE of a lamb to torture anyone. It is simply not in the nature of the lamb to want to hurt in any way. Really! What could a lamb do to torture anyone? It has no capability for such a thing. And so it is with the LAMB OF GOD! The Lamb of God has no desire, no ability to inflict torture in any way - His desire is entirely redemptive - that men might have life and have it more abundantly! I cannot imagine One with the nature of a lamb packing poor lost souls like brick into a kiln, standing there blowing the fires of hell through them for ever. Such a grotesque representation charges the blessed Redeemer with crimes more heartless than those of Adoph Eichmann.
Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb. What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves. Because they are wrong and sinful in nature, wicked in their hearts, selfish in their minds, and impure in their desires, they are CONDEMNED IN THEIR CONSCIENCES by the very PRESENCE of the pure, holy, sinless, selfless, sacrificing Lamb of God. Hell is at its fiercest when it sees heaven, and not till then. When these realize the presence, or the character of the Lamb, they are tortured in their consciences, for in the Light of the Lamb they see themselves for the wretched little devils they are. The very PRESENCE of TRUTH torments the deceitful and the liar. The very PRESENCE of HOLINESS torments the immoral and corrupt. The very PRESENCE of LOVE is torment to the mean and hateful. The PRESENCE of Him who is the PRINCE OF PEACE is torture to those who live by violence and the sword. The very PRESENCE of the LIFE OF THE LAMB is the most awful torment and torture to all the opposing forces, both deceiver and deceived, until all the deceit and hostility has been taken out of them, and they come to KNOW THE LORD. When these have been exposed for a sufficient time to the PRESENCE of the Lamb, the Lamb will overcome them; His love and power will conquer their hearts; the rebellion and waywardness will be taken from them and they will at last ENJOY the Presence of the Lamb!
When the maniac of Gadara encountered the Christ the devils cried out, saying, "Have You come here to TORMENT US before the time?" (Mat. 8:29). IT WAS TORMENT FOR A POSSESSED PERSON TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE CHRIST. It is torment for any enemy of God to be ushered into the presence of God. Anyone who is unacquainted with God and happens to come into a group who are worshipping and praising God, is in torment all the time he is there. The sooner such a person can leave, the better he likes it. Such an atmosphere is hell for that person! Why is it so hard to get your unsaved loved ones and friends to go to Church? They are unhappy and miserable in a Church meeting! They are tormented when with the saints worshipping God. They are estranged from God, citizens of the devil's kingdom, and cannot relate to the praises of God, the moving of the Holy Spirit, giving tithes, and the Word that is ministered. This all makes them unhappy and uncomfortable.
Peter Marshall said that when the apostles preached the Gospel there were either riots or regeneration. The fact of the matter is that in most cases there were both, for the same Gospel melted some hearts and turned others to stone. People were led either to faith in Jesus Christ or they were stirred to the most violent animosity and enmity. Jesus Christ has always been either a stone of stumbling or the sure foundation stone. We build upon it or we stumble over it and are crushed by it. Riots or regeneration! Joy unspeakable and full of glory or torment!
A person under deep conviction is tormented. Tormented with what? He is tormented with the fire of God's holy presence, the fire of His penetrating, burning Word. He has no peace or rest, day or night. His conscience troubles him continually. When you and I were under deep conviction for our sins and past life we were tormented by the Holy Spirit, the presence of God. And we had no rest day or night. When we were finally broken by the Holy Spirit's dealing and repented and confessed those sins to Jesus, we cried often and shed many bitter tears of remorse and regret. THAT, my friend, is exactly what the rebellious will do in the ages to come as God deals with "every man in his own order." There was no short cut to salvation for us, and there will be none for them. In some cases it took months and years, sometimes a lifetime, of preaching and dealings to win our hearts to the Lord. And I am sure that it will take much preaching and many dealings along with the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to win the ignorant, disobedient, and defiant masses who lived and died in this world outside of Christ.
A brother in the Lord shared this illustration of wicked people being tormented in the presence of the Lamb: "A few years ago, we often preached to ALL the women in the state penitentiary for women. They were forced to sit and listen while we sang about Jesus, talked about Jesus and preached about Him. Some wept, some stared, and some faces showed bitter hatred toward us. Others seemed to writhe and twist in mental anguish and physical torment. Why? Because they were forced to listen. There was no escape" -end quote.
Suppose a few filthy, vile men and a few immoral women from some house of prostitution were forced to sit in the midst of a large congregation of singing, shouting, worshipping saints. This certainly would he torment to most of them. They would be tortured in the flames of the blazing glory of God in that place! If they were not held in their seats by force, most of them would rush out of there. I have been in meetings where I witnessed three responses to the glorious manifestation of the Lord's presence. First, the saints who loved the Lord rejoiced and adoringly worshipped. Some who were not Christians, but whose hearts were tender toward the Lord, came under deep conviction and, weeping and broken, gave themselves into the loving hands of Jesus. But others, filled with self, haters of righteousness, I have seen jump up and literally run out of a meeting - TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB! Sure, they would rush, even run to get away from the convicting power of the Holy Ghost! I have seen it, and so have you.
To the unsaved, HIS GLORY is a LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire! In ages yet unborn God shall expose ALL MEN to the sweet abiding presence of the Lamb. They will come under such severe processings, under such profound conviction that they will be tormented and have no rest day or night until they finally yield. And when they do, many fountains of tears will flow with weeping, praying, and calling upon the Lord.
I believe it! God hasten it!

Floatingaxe · Sep 30, 2008

There is no "until' no yielding, no exit, and no life in the Lake of Fire. There is no presence of God, for He is busy enjoying His precious, faithful people in the New Jerusalem!

This is complete error and deflects from orthodox Christianity. It is heresy.

Revelation 14:9-12
Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

HEisGoodalways · Sep 30, 2008

brinny said:
i do declare, i'm gettin' a yen to pray over this thread...

and my typing

but seriously, Jesus Himself says He is the only way to Father, our Abba....and there is none other.....

He should know, right?

Floatingaxe said:
Yep. Seems there are some around here who think they know better than Jesus--that the cross is of no effect, and that God is an emotional basket case who will abandon His Word and become a liar and an unjust Judge and throw open heaven's gates for the unrepentant wicked.

I would never worship a God like that! Would you?

The spiritual fire will cause them to repent, the same spiritual, consuming fire that is refining us, now

Remember, there flesh is going back to dust, won't need a literal fire

Eccliastes 12:7 Then the dust [of mortals] goes back to the ground as it was before, and the spirit (breath of life ) goes back to God who gave it

Faulty · Sep 30, 2008

HEisGoodalways said:
To the unsaved, HIS GLORY is a LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire! In ages yet unborn God shall expose ALL MEN to the sweet abiding presence of the Lamb. They will come under such severe processings, under such profound conviction that they will be tormented and have no rest day or night until they finally yield. And when they do, many fountains of tears will flow with weeping, praying, and calling upon the Lord.
I believe it! God hasten it!

That really kinda goes against Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

One can't be tormented in His presence and be departed from His presence at the same time.

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
There is no "until' no yielding, no exit, and no life in the Lake of Fire. There is no presence of God, for He is busy enjoying His precious, faithful people in the New Jerusalem!

This is complete error and deflects from orthodox Christianity. It is heresy.

Truth is sister, we are in the New Jerusalem now in the Spirit, and we are His temple in the New Jerusalem now, living stones(us), being built up His spiritual house, us, individually and corparately in the Spirit of the living God!!

!Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stonerejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Floatingaxe · Oct 1, 2008

HEisGoodalways said:
Truth is sister, we are in the New Jerusalem now in the Spirit, and we are His temple in the New Jerusalem now, living stones(us), being built up His spiritual house, us, individually and corparately in the Spirit of the living God!!

!Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

That is a deflection. The New Jerusalem is yet to come.

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

FaultySurplus said:
That really kinda goes against Matthew 7:23, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

One can't be tormented in His presence and be departed from His presence at the same time.

Similar to what he said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, but they won"t be bbq'd in literal fire either, they were fearfully and wonderfully made in there mothers womb in the image and likeness of HIM, just like us, who have been drawn and chosen in this life, Praise His matchless name!!!

Floatingaxe · Oct 1, 2008

HEisGoodalways said:
Similar to what he said to the Pharisees and Sadducees, but they won"t be bbq'd in literal fire either, they were fearfully and wonderfully made in there mothers womb in the image and likeness of HIM, just like us, who have been drawn and chosen in this life, Praise His matchless name!!!

Sorry. That is drivel.

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
That is a deflection. The New Jerusalem is yet to come.

Are we not His temple in the Spirit now? 1 Peter 2

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Sorry. That is drivel.

Thats a new word to me sister, drivel?

Floatingaxe · Oct 1, 2008

HEisGoodalways said:
Are we not His temple in the Spirit now? 1 Peter 2

We are His temple, but confusing matters by calling us the New Jerusalem when we are discussing the fact that The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth after the GWT Judgment--after the wicked have been sent to their damnation forever, and we will forever be with God, is unconscionable.

There is no good argument for Universalism, because it is based on very poor exegesis and worst of all--wishful thinking and fantasy that confuses and deceives.

Again--out of context references, which are the order of the day with Universalists!

Floatingaxe · Oct 1, 2008

Drivel noun
1.saliva flowing from the mouth, or mucus from the nose; slaver.
2.childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
We are His temple, but confusing matters by calling us the New Jerusalem when we are discussing the fact that The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth after the GWT Judgment--after the wicked have been sent to their damnation forever, and we will forever be with God, is unconscionable.

There is no good argument for Universalism, because it is based on very poor exegesis and worst of all--wishful thinking and fantasy that confuses and deceives.

Again--out of context references, which are the order of the day with Universalists!

We are the temple in the new jerusalem now!!! in the Spirit!!!

" My Words are Spirit and they are life" JESUS!!! John 6

The kingdom of God is in us and among us in the Spirit, NOW!!!!

We are seated with HIM, Now!!! Spirtually

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
Drivel noun
1.saliva flowing from the mouth, or mucus from the nose; slaver.
2.childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.

Truth, my loving sister, Truth!! Open her eyes oh God!!!

Floatingaxe · Oct 1, 2008

HEisGoodalways said:
We are the temple in the new jerusalem now!!! in the Spirit!!!

" My Words are Spirit and they are life" JESUS!!! John 6

The kingdom of God is in us and among us in the Spirit, NOW!!!!

We are seated with HIM, Now!!! Spirtually

WHO is "we"?

It is ONLY Christians!

HEisGoodalways · Oct 1, 2008

Floatingaxe said:
We are His temple, but confusing matters by calling us the New Jerusalem when we are discussing the fact that The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth after the GWT Judgment--after the wicked have been sent to their damnation forever, and we will forever be with God, is unconscionable.

There is no good argument for Universalism, because it is based on very poor exegesis and worst of all--wishful thinking and fantasy that confuses and deceives.

Again--out of context references, which are the order of the day with Universalists!

It's already come down out of heaven "My kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth"?

Is Everybody going to heaven?

Will everyone go to heaven?

Yes: Hell does not exist

Yes: Hell does exist but it is not permenant (God will rehab every soul)

No:There is a literal hell and those who go there never come back

I don't have an opinion / undecided

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