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Is embellising a form of lying?

Laodicean

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Wearing clothes is an embellishment of the original wardrobe.... naked and not ashamed..... sometimes embellishment is a necessity....

Chuckle. Good one.

Nevertheless, since "embellish" means to add extra adornment, I'd be inclined to say that during the time of "naked and not ashamed" any additional clothing would be embellishment. But afterwards, when "naked and ashamed" became the norm, then adding clothing would be a necessity and would not yet reach the level of embellishment.
 
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k4c

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I think you guys are missing my question. Let me give you a little more detail.

A pastor friend and I were doing minisrty a few years ago when I heard him trying to encourage a lady who was also working with us by telling her that the kids in youth group last night were really excited (referring to back then). They were answering questions and getting into the study. This all sounded good to the lady because she didn't attend that particular youth group but I was there and the kids were spiritually dead. They didn't even want to be there I even had to talk to one kid because he kept kicking a can during Bible study and no one was answering any questions.

I spoke to the pastor later about how what he said really wasn't true. He told me that that was my interpretation.

What are your thoughts?
 
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StormyOne

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I think you guys are missing my question. Let me give you a little more detail.

A pastor friend and I were doing minisrty a few years ago when I heard him trying to encourage a lady who was also working with us by telling her that the kids in youth group last night were really excited (referring to back then). They were answering questions and getting into the study. This all sounded good to the lady because she didn't attend that particular youth group but I was there and the kids were spiritually dead. They didn't even want to be there I even had to talk to one kid because he kept kicking a can during Bible study and no one was answering any questions.

I spoke to the pastor later about how what he said really wasn't true. He told me that that was my interpretation.

What are your thoughts?
Yeah, that's a lie.....
 
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Laodicean

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I think you guys are missing my question. Let me give you a little more detail.

A pastor friend and I were doing minisrty a few years ago when I heard him trying to encourage a lady who was also working with us by telling her that the kids in youth group last night were really excited (referring to back then). They were answering questions and getting into the study. This all sounded good to the lady because she didn't attend that particular youth group but I was there and the kids were spiritually dead. They didn't even want to be there I even had to talk to one kid because he kept kicking a can during Bible study and no one was answering any questions.

I spoke to the pastor later about how what he said really wasn't true. He told me that that was my interpretation.

What are your thoughts?

Maybe it was the glass half full, glass half empty? Maybe the pastor was aware of those who were excited and asked questions, and you were aware of those who did not want to be there and seemed spiritually dead? Were the youth forced to attend? If not, then they couldn't be that spiritually dead if they showed up.

Of course, if you saw that there was not one single person who responded to the pastor, then I guess the pastor not only embellished, he outright lied.
 
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k4c

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Maybe it was the glass half full, glass half empty? Maybe the pastor was aware of those who were excited and asked questions, and you were aware of those who did not want to be there and seemed spiritually dead? Were the youth forced to attend? If not, then they couldn't be that spiritually dead if they showed up.

Of course, if you saw that there was not one single person who responded to the pastor, then I guess the pastor not only embellished, he outright lied.

Well, there were four kids there that night two of which were the pastor's kids who had no desire for the word of God and two of their friends who came to play basketball afterwards.

It was the day after when I kinda walked in on the pastor's converstaion with the lady and heard him say the things he said and then he turned to me and said, "Right" like he wanted me to confirm what he was saying because I was there but then he turned back to the lady without giving me a chance to reply, which I was glad he didn't because I felt I was put on the spot. I learned later that the lady was expressing her discouragement over how the kids had no desire for the word. I felt that he should have just told her the truth on how hard it is to work with kids who are in the world, rather than, saying things that are not true to encourage her because if she later learned the truth of what really happened at youth night it would have done more harm than good but the pastor didn't see that way. This bothered me now because now I had to work along side this lady who thinks the kids are great when she's not teaching.
 
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Laodicean

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Well, there were four kids there that night two of which were the pastor's kids who had no desire for the word of God and two of their friends who came to play basketball afterwards.

It was the day after when I kinda walked in on the pastor's converstaion with the lady and heard him say the things he said and then he turned to me and said, "Right" like he wanted me to confirm what he was saying because I was there but then he turned back to the lady without giving me a chance to reply, which I was glad he didn't because I felt I was put on the spot. I learned later that the lady was expressing her discouragement over how the kids had no desire for the word. I felt that he should have just told her the truth on how hard it is to work with kids who are in the world, rather than, saying things that are not true to encourage her because if she later learned the truth of what really happened at youth night it would have done more harm than good but the pastor didn't see that way. This bothered me now because now I had to work along side this lady who thinks the kids are great when she's not teaching.

Ouch. Tough spot to be in for sure. i guess it's not too surprising that the pastor's kids were uninterested if their dad was prone to such embellishments. They probably could pick up on his tendency to be insincere in general, and that led to a loss of interest in spiritual things. Too bad.
 
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Hotpepper

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I'm not sure that all things said in implication to misleading, (out of the urgency to protect; stemming from the love for God and His people), that this is necessarily wrong. What on earth does that mean? I'll explain. In Joshua 2:1-7 it says:

"Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shi-ttim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there. The king of Jericho was told, “Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.” But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut." (Joshua 2:1-7)

Reading this shows us that Rahab flat out lied to the men of Jericho. However when we read James 2:24-25 in regards to the context of her actions of faith (the fruit of the Spirit). it says this:

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?" (James 2:24-25)

As well as Hebrews 11:31 in the context of her faith

"By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient."

So perhaps the pastor thought that if he said anything other that what he said, the woman would not come back and thus leave the children in a state of deprivation to the Word and His Spirit through fellowship that brings us unto life and out of the clutches of sin that leads to death.

Would this be considered righteous as it was with Rahab or is it a lie that is sinful? I'm not saying one way or the other where I stand because I'm not set on this. I'm leaning this way on the fence but I'm looking for more information. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about this...
 
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AzA

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Hotpepper, the Rahab story is a classic example in discussions of Jewish-Christian ethics. So are the cases of the Hebrew midwives who protected Hebrew children from Pharaoh, Abraham lying about his wife and half-sister, Tamar entrapping Judah and sleeping with him, and Esther sleeping with Xerxes against several laws.

Lots of ink has been spilled on this, both by Jews and by Christians. Some Christian writers, like Norman Geisler, argue that when you have two absolutes that conflict, you need to grade or rank them, and choose to pursue the one with the higher score. They usually differentiate this approach from situational ethics (and Geisler doesn't do it very well, because he's over-invested).
 
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k4c

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I'm not sure that all things said in implication to misleading, (out of the urgency to protect; stemming from the love for God and His people), that this is necessarily wrong. What on earth does that mean? I'll explain. In Joshua 2:1-7 it says:

"Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies from Shi-ttim. “Go, look over the land,” he said, “especially Jericho.” So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there. The king of Jericho was told, “Look! Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.” But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut." (Joshua 2:1-7)

Reading this shows us that Rahab flat out lied to the men of Jericho. However when we read James 2:24-25 in regards to the context of her actions of faith (the fruit of the Spirit). it says this:

"You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?" (James 2:24-25)

As well as Hebrews 11:31 in the context of her faith

"By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient."

So perhaps the pastor thought that if he said anything other that what he said, the woman would not come back and thus leave the children in a state of deprivation to the Word and His Spirit through fellowship that brings us unto life and out of the clutches of sin that leads to death.

Would this be considered righteous as it was with Rahab or is it a lie that is sinful? I'm not saying one way or the other where I stand because I'm not set on this. I'm leaning this way on the fence but I'm looking for more information. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about this...

I'm not of the group that believes all lying is a sin. The commandment against lying is to not bear false witness against your neighbor. This has to do with lying in such a way as to cause harm or for personal gain.

I don't believe lying to save a life is a sin but we tread a fine line when we lie to make people feel better when there is a chance the person will learn the truth and be hurt more by the lie or if we put someone in a position where they have to confirm a lie to justify the liar.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Is embellishing a form of lying?
Maybe. Maybe not.

Should Christians embellish?
Depends on why they're doing it. Humorous stories are usually embellishments that aren't meant to be taken seriously. I enjoy telling and hearing humorous stories.


BFA
 
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Hotpepper

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I'm not of the group that believes all lying is a sin. The commandment against lying is to not bear false witness against your neighbor. This has to do with lying in such a way as to cause harm or for personal gain.

I don't believe lying to save a life is a sin but we tread a find line when we lie to make people feel better when there is a chance the person will learn the truth and be hurt more by the lie or if we put someone in a position where they have to confirm a lie to justify the liar.


*Agrees* :thumbsup:
 
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Sophia7

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Hotpepper, the Rahab story is a classic example in discussions of Jewish-Christian ethics. So are the cases of the Hebrew midwives who protected Hebrew children from Pharaoh, Abraham lying about his wife and half-sister, Tamar entrapping Judah and sleeping with him, and Esther sleeping with Xerxes against several laws.

Lots of ink has been spilled on this, both by Jews and by Christians. Some Christian writers, like Norman Geisler, argue that when you have two absolutes that conflict, you need to grade or rank them, and choose to pursue the one with the higher score. They usually differentiate this approach from situational ethics (and Geisler doesn't do it very well, because he's over-invested).

Another situation that's often mentioned in ethics discussions is the Holocaust. I read The Hiding Place several years ago, and I thought that the family tension over the issue of lying was very interesting.

Corrie ten Boom's sister Nollie had taught her children that lying was wrong, so when the Nazis came looking for her sons (to enlist them in military service, I think), her daughter told them that her older brothers were hiding under the table, which was true. The soldiers looked under the tablecloth but not under the rug, where there was a trapdoor in the floor, so they didn't find them and thought that the girl was joking. Nollie was also hiding Jews, but they were posing as household servants and had false papers.

The family disagreed on whether lying was right in that situation. Nollie wouldn't lie with words, but she had no objection to using false papers for the Jews that she helped. The rest of the family thought that lying was necessary in that situation and pointed out the apparent inconsistency in not lying with one's mouth but lying by one's actions.

At one point Nollie was actually arrested because the Nazis came to her house and asked her directly if a young woman who was working for them was a Jew. Nollie said yes, and both she and the woman were arrested. However, Nollie was never sent to a concentration camp; she was kept in prison for several weeks and then released. The Jewish woman was scheduled to be sent to a death camp in Poland or somewhere, but before she and the other prisoners who were being held together could be transported, someone broke in and rescued them, and she later sent word to the ten Boom family that she was free. Nollie viewed that as a sign from God to vindicate her stance against lying; whether it was or not, at least no harm came to the Jewish woman because of Nollie's truthful words.

On the other hand, Corrie and her sister Betsie, who believed that lying was necessary under the circumstances, were sent to a concentration camp, where Betsie died, but they used even the darkest circumstances as opportunities to minister to others and to share the love of God with them. Their imprisonment was not a punishment from God for lying but a punishment from the Nazis for saving Jews.

While reading that book, I was struck by the fact that there was no clear agreement among Christians about lying even during the Nazi regime, but all of the members of the family stood up for their beliefs even though it brought them into disagreement with each other. There is not always a black or a white choice--and maybe not always a better or a worse choice. Sometimes the right thing to do is ambiguous, and perhaps there are times when the right thing to do is just to make a decision and to stand firm.
 
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k4c

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Another situation that's often mentioned in ethics discussions is the Holocaust. I read The Hiding Place several years ago, and I thought that the family tension over the issue of lying was very interesting.

Corrie ten Boom's sister Nollie had taught her children that lying was wrong, so when the Nazis came looking for her sons (to enlist them in military service, I think), her daughter told them that her older brothers were hiding under the table, which was true. The soldiers looked under the tablecloth but not under the rug, where there was a trapdoor in the floor, so they didn't find them and thought that the girl was joking. Nollie was also hiding Jews, but they were posing as household servants and had false papers.

The family disagreed on whether lying was right in that situation. Nollie wouldn't lie with words, but she had no objection to using false papers for the Jews that she helped. The rest of the family thought that lying was necessary in that situation and pointed out the apparent inconsistency in not lying with one's mouth but lying by one's actions.

At one point Nollie was actually arrested because the Nazis came to her house and asked her directly if a young woman who was working for them was a Jew. Nollie said yes, and both she and the woman were arrested. However, Nollie was never sent to a concentration camp; she was kept in prison for several weeks and then released. The Jewish woman was scheduled to be sent to a death camp in Poland or somewhere, but before she and the other prisoners who were being held together could be transported, someone broke in and rescued them, and she later sent word to the ten Boom family that she was free. Nollie viewed that as a sign from God to vindicate her stance against lying; whether it was or not, at least no harm came to the Jewish woman because of Nollie's truthful words.

On the other hand, Corrie and her sister Betsie, who believed that lying was necessary under the circumstances, were sent to a concentration camp, where Betsie died, but they used even the darkest circumstances as opportunities to minister to others and to share the love of God with them. Their imprisonment was not a punishment from God for lying but a punishment from the Nazis for saving Jews.

While reading that book, I was struck by the fact that there was no clear agreement among Christians about lying even during the Nazi regime, but all of the members of the family stood up for their beliefs even though it brought them into disagreement with each other. There is not always a black or a white choice--and maybe not always a better or a worse choice. Sometimes the right thing to do is ambiguous, and perhaps there are times when the right thing to do is just to make a decision and to stand firm.

How people are taught is very important because sin, whether real or preceived, has the same effect. Many times throughout the Bible we find people lying. We even find God sending lying spirits to people. What makes a lie a sin or evil is the motive behind the lie. In the same way something that is good can become sin or evil based on the motive.
 
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VictorC

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Another situation that's often mentioned in ethics discussions is the Holocaust. I read The Hiding Place several years ago, and I thought that the family tension over the issue of lying was very interesting.

Corrie ten Boom's sister Nollie had taught her children that lying was wrong, so when the Nazis came looking for her sons (to enlist them in military service, I think), her daughter told them that her older brothers were hiding under the table, which was true. The soldiers looked under the tablecloth but not under the rug, where there was a trapdoor in the floor, so they didn't find them and thought that the girl was joking. Nollie was also hiding Jews, but they were posing as household servants and had false papers.

The family disagreed on whether lying was right in that situation. Nollie wouldn't lie with words, but she had no objection to using false papers for the Jews that she helped. The rest of the family thought that lying was necessary in that situation and pointed out the apparent inconsistency in not lying with one's mouth but lying by one's actions.

At one point Nollie was actually arrested because the Nazis came to her house and asked her directly if a young woman who was working for them was a Jew. Nollie said yes, and both she and the woman were arrested. However, Nollie was never sent to a concentration camp; she was kept in prison for several weeks and then released. The Jewish woman was scheduled to be sent to a death camp in Poland or somewhere, but before she and the other prisoners who were being held together could be transported, someone broke in and rescued them, and she later sent word to the ten Boom family that she was free. Nollie viewed that as a sign from God to vindicate her stance against lying; whether it was or not, at least no harm came to the Jewish woman because of Nollie's truthful words.

On the other hand, Corrie and her sister Betsie, who believed that lying was necessary under the circumstances, were sent to a concentration camp, where Betsie died, but they used even the darkest circumstances as opportunities to minister to others and to share the love of God with them. Their imprisonment was not a punishment from God for lying but a punishment from the Nazis for saving Jews.

While reading that book, I was struck by the fact that there was no clear agreement among Christians about lying even during the Nazi regime, but all of the members of the family stood up for their beliefs even though it brought them into disagreement with each other. There is not always a black or a white choice--and maybe not always a better or a worse choice. Sometimes the right thing to do is ambiguous, and perhaps there are times when the right thing to do is just to make a decision and to stand firm.
I have read some of the comments Corrie Ten Boom made later in life, and have found that she does have a lot of insight gained from her experiences. She even mentions the damage the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine caused the churches in China during the communist overthrow post-1949, leaving those churches unprepared for the persecution they were subjected to.

I haven't read The Hiding Place. I think I need to. Nollie's example of uncompromised dedication to the truth regardless of the risk involved opens up a subject that is difficult and germane for our future in this country, in my opinion. Thanks for this post.
 
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Restin

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... the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.” But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut." (Joshua 2:1-7)

Reading this shows us that Rahab flat out lied to the men of Jericho.
Yes...as man would judge lying, though Rahab did NOT lie to her conscience and what she believed to be true about the God of Israel. In lying to the authority of man, by FAITH, she was given to risk her own life for the cause of truth.

Restin
 
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