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Is dinosaur a bird?

coberst

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Is dinosaur a bird?

“Fossil evidence and intensive biological analyses have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that birds are theropod dinosaurs.”—Wiki

When is a politician lying? Is the Pope a bachelor? It all depends upon what is is!

Category is the staff of knowledge. What are categories and who gives a #@*&?

The word “bachelor” is a noun for those individuals defined as being an unmarried adult male. Most people would not say that the Pope is a bachelor even though he is an unmarried adult male.

Let us examine the process that is called “framing the issue”. We see an example of this when one side calls it self ‘pro-life’ and the other side calls it self ‘pro-choice’. The pro-choice individual is framing the issue about that beautiful concept ‘freedom’. The pro-life individual is framing the issue about that beautiful concept ‘life’.

Framing the issue is about choosing categories based upon often ideological and self-serving purposes. However, we do also frame the issue by categorization with or without ideological or self-serving motivations. Frames are one type, among many, of cognitive models.

What day is this, it’s Monday, the worst day of the week! Monday can only be defined in reference to what might be called an ICM (Idealized Cognitive Model). The concept ‘week’ is an ICM. The week is a whole that has seven parts. The model of the week is idealized, meaning that the seven-day week has no concrete existence, it is an abstract idea that we humans have created. It belongs to our culture; other cultures may have all kinds of different ICM for dividing up their cycles of the sun.

Back to the category of “bachelor” and the question ‘is the Pope a bachelor?’ There is generally a social context when using this word. We do not consider a gay male couple to be a set of bachelors. Catholic priests are not generally considered to be bachelors. I suspect that we do not think of Tarzan as being a bachelor.

Bachelor is an ICM like ‘week’ and in this case it does not fit even our culture in a complete and exact manner. “An idealized cognitive model may fit one’s understanding of the world either perfectly, very well, pretty well, somewhat well, badly, or not at all. If the ICM in which bachelor is defined fits a situation perfectly and the person referred to by the term is unrequitedly an unmarried adult, then he qualifies as a member of the category bachelor

When is a politician lying?

The category ‘lie’ can be a very important category especially when perjury is a question; perhaps it is even more important when citizen confidence is at stake. When is a lie, a lie, and when is it something more innocuous and can we know the difference?

There are a number of conditions that classical categorization of ‘necessary and sufficient’ place upon a statement before we catalogue it as being a lie: falsity of belief, intended deception, and factual falsity. A good example of a lie wherein there is little or nothing in which we might quibble is ‘when I steal something and then deny doing it’.

Empirical research has turned up a surprising conclusion about this matter of lies and liars. Most people consider that Fred is lying when Fred says something that Fred considers to be false, regardless of its factual falsity.

Bachelor, bird, and lie are example of prototypes. While some cognitive models are classical; that is to say, that they share rigid boundaries and are characterized by necessary and sufficient conditions, many are not.

Often there are is a prototype of the category by which we judge whether something belongs to a category. In the case of the three categories mentioned we use prototypical characteristics to judge whether a man is ‘really’ a bachelor or a liar. In the case of dinosaur I suspect most of us recognize that for zoological science the dinosaur is a bird but we would ordinarily not consider that a dinosaur is much like a sparrow or robin, which for many of us is a prototypical bird.

This business of categorization is what President Clinton was talking about when he replied “It all depends on what is is!”

Quotes from A Clearing in the Forest: Law, Life, and Mind by Steven L. Winter professor of Law.


 

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It's allegedly to do with their scaly legs, a remnant of their dino days, if you believe that.

I don't believe it because no scientist is saying that.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gareth

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Well it's what I got told by my employer when I was working for a poultry company allied with Tyson Foods here in the UK. I didn't believe it either, but it's what they thought. There is a valid reason why birds legs are what they are it's just that some answers given won't involve a creator.
 
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Gareth

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Maybe rather than use the word "evolved" use adapted because all chickens come from the Jungle Fowl and therefore the sizes, colours of feather and egg were wrapped up in it's DNA. Man has manipulated the Jungle Fowl in a way which is very much faster than evolution could ever do. If we were waiting on evolution to produce the pure breeds of birds rather than the hybrids we would still have to use the base source because no change of note would of occurred.
 
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JGL53

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Maybe rather than use the word "evolved" use adapted because all chickens come from the Jungle Fowl and therefore the sizes, colours of feather and egg were wrapped up in it's DNA. Man has manipulated the Jungle Fowl in a way which is very much faster than evolution could ever do. If we were waiting on evolution to produce the pure breeds of birds rather than the hybrids we would still have to use the base source because no change of note would of occurred.

Be that as it may, it is pretty clear that new species evolve from previous species over vast periods of time that are beyond the human mind to appreciate fully.

Otherwise, god let Satan put all those hundreds of millions of fossils in the earth just to fool humans into thinking evolution is a fact.

Let's hope not. Let's hope god has more control over his little buddy Satan than that.
 
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Gareth

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Yet how easy it is for Evolutionists to put skin and flesh and colour onto some fragments of bone. We tend sometimes to just stand by and accept what a scientist says instead of questioning just how they come to the conclusions that they do come to.

The danger for all of mankind is that science will be the new faith and God, will be relegated to one old book. But science has it's limitations, but no-one talks about those things. The present food crisis has put back onto the table the need to be able to feed an increasing population. This thought has been around for many years and though science has tried hard, the answers continue to be elude them. There is to some degree already enough food on the planet. Certainly the wheat harvest has been poor over a couple of years, but there are other foods other than wheat to eat. It comes down to greed and politics as always. The amount of good food that is thrown away by supermarkets every week because of oversupply is a scandal. Yet many of us accept this as a necessary evil because we don't want to see half-empty shelves. The supermarket gets our trade through it's ability to always be well stocked, so that any loss through waste they are only to happy to take on as long as they can keep our custom.
 
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JGL53

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Yet how easy it is for Evolutionists to put skin and flesh and colour onto some fragments of bone. We tend sometimes to just stand by and accept what a scientist says instead of questioning just how they come to the conclusions that they do come to...

You don’t have the scientific education to question scientific conclusions about anything, including the theories of the atomic nature of matter, the Big Bang, quantum field theory, plate tectonics, special or general relativity, the three laws of thermodynamics, evolution, or any of the other thousands of scientific explanations. I doubt you have the educational background to understand – or question – the Krebs cycle. I suspect, quite strongly, that you are a flaming scientific illiterate. But you do read the bible a lot and believe quite strongly in your particular interpretation of it. That’s good.

The danger for all of mankind is that science will be the new faith and God, will be relegated to one old book. .


God’s all powerful. He won’t let that happen – IF he exists – i.e., I’d say the proof is in the pudding. LOL.

But science has it's limitations, but no-one talks about those things. .


Duh. Humans in general have their limitations. So what? As Einstein said “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.

The present food crisis has put back onto the table the need to be able to feed an increasing population. This thought has been around for many years and though science has tried hard, the answers continue to be elude them. .


So? Science does not produce all the answers to all the world’s problems as you see them, thus we must move on to….,,,what, superstition?

There is to some degree already enough food on the planet. Certainly the wheat harvest has been poor over a couple of years, but there are other foods other than wheat to eat. It comes down to greed and politics as always. The amount of good food that is thrown away by supermarkets every week because of oversupply is a scandal. Yet many of us accept this as a necessary evil because we don't want to see half-empty shelves. The supermarket gets our trade through it's ability to always be well stocked, so that any loss through waste they are only to happy to take on as long as they can keep our custom.

What’s all this got to do with the evolution of modern day birds from a type of dinosaur? I, mean, really, aren't you wandering rather far from the OP?
 
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Gareth

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You don’t have the scientific education to question scientific conclusions about anything, including the theories of the atomic nature of matter, the Big Bang, quantum field theory, plate tectonics, special or general relativity, the three laws of thermodynamics, evolution, or any of the other thousands of scientific explanations. I doubt you have the educational background to understand – or question – the Krebs cycle. I suspect, quite strongly, that you are a flaming scientific illiterate. But you do read the bible a lot and believe quite strongly in your particular interpretation of it. That’s good.

Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy in those areas but then so is a majority of the population as are the scientific community at large. Why them? Simply because they don't agree with each other and have conflicting views on things. Having a Phd or two doesn't make a person better or more educated than another. They may be able to explain complicated things in a complicated way, but can they bake bread?
 
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JGL53

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...Yeah, I'm a little fuzzy in those areas but then so is a majority of the population as are the scientific community at large. Why them? Simply because they don't agree with each other and have conflicting views on things...

What "conflicting views"? What are you talking about?

Scientists know more about science than laypersons. One would expect that. But educated laypersons can understand science if they just try a little to read and study it. There is no excuse for any person of normal I.Q. to not understand the basic scientific theories. IOW, there is no real excuse for scientific illiteracy. IF you are scientifically illiterate, then you have no basis on which to debate science. And yet you do. And thus the problem.

...Having a Phd or two doesn't make a person better or more educated than another...
No one is better than someone else, in some metaphysical way. But educated people are better educated than undereducated people. And whose fault it that? - I'm thinking it is the undereducated people's fault. And the remedy? - more and better education.

...They may be able to explain complicated things in a complicated way, but can they bake bread?...

You can bake bread? Good. Would you recognize a scientific fact if it walked up and bit you on the butt? - That is the question. LOL.

But, to get back to the topic, yes, birds evolved from a type of dinosaur - that is a beyond a reasonable doubt scientific fact. If you have scientific evidence to the contrary, let's see it.
 
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Blackmarch

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Is dinosaur a bird?
most likely- that's where I'd lay my money... but it hasn't been proven, altho there is a lot of evidence to suggest it.
The discovery of a raptor that had feather structures at one time thought to prove it but later was discovered from other features it had that it was more advanced/ came later than archeopteryx... which threw the issue back in the air again. I'm not aware of anything since then, which could solidly prove that birds are the closest thing we have to ancient Dinosaurs.
 
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TeddyKGB

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most likely- that's where I'd lay my money... but it hasn't been proven, altho there is a lot of evidence to suggest it.
The discovery of a raptor that had feather structures at one time thought to prove it but later was discovered from other features it had that it was more advanced/ came later than archeopteryx... which threw the issue back in the air again. I'm not aware of anything since then, which could solidly prove that birds are the closest thing we have to ancient Dinosaurs.
That birds are descended from a particular group of dinosaur is essentially beyond question. The difficult part is determining where the precious few feathered theropod fossils fit into the lineage.
 
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I would have to say crocodiles are the closest living relatives of dinosaurs. The only thing that's changed in them in a few millions years is their size. Based on the many fossils found and the research being done on the bird-dinosaur thing, I'd have to say birds are an evolved form of a certain type of dinosaur.

Which makes me wonder what humans will end up like...
 
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MorkandMindy

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I would have to say crocodiles are the closest living relatives of dinosaurs. The only thing that's changed in them in a few millions years is their size. Based on the many fossils found and the research being done on the bird-dinosaur thing, I'd have to say birds are an evolved form of a certain type of dinosaur.

Which makes me wonder what humans will end up like...

Dinosaurs started off 230 million years ago as a development of a tetrapod similar to a crocodile and developed until being wiped out (or almost entirely wiped out) 65 million years ago, by which point they were very diverse.

The key to the ability of the dinosaur to get much bigger than a crocodile is that the legs come out under the dino whereas crocodile legs come out fairly horizontally. Dinos are also known for having hard egg shells.

Dinosaurs gradually developed faster metabolisms and various levels of body temperature regulation - the blood supply in the bones of some indicated growth rates and therefore metabolisms not far from modern cows.


So the early dinosaurs were like crocodiles and a very few of the later ones were birds which are classed as a descendent taxon.
 
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MorkandMindy

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Is dinosaur a bird?

The way English is constructed isn't the correct phrasing:

'Is bird a dinosaur?'

meaning 'is avian a type of dinosaur'? because 'dinosaur' includes a lot of things from the crocodilians, through the really big things and the really scary things to little runny-about things that I presume started flapping wings and becoming bird-like
 
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loveiseverywhere

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You know I think it's sad that many Christians cannot find compatibiliy with their love of Christ and with Science.

I believe in Christ. I also accept evolution. Why? Because I've read and studied almost every single book on the subject from both points of view (creationism and evolution) and I have found that people like Francis Collins (who headed the Human Genome Project) and Kenneth Miller (author of Finding Darwin's God) who are both Christians, have done the necessary intellectual footwork to find that God is the ultimate Scientist, worthy of worship for creating the Universe and all the life within it.

And yes, birds evolved from Dinosaurs.

The Evolution of Birds from Dinosaurs | birding .com
 
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