Is contemporary christian music "conforming to the world"

faceofbear · Jul 5, 2011

spiritman1 said:
basically your saying if something is done wrong, and it is done wrong for a really long time, then somehow it makes it OK! I personally am ok with people enjoying all types of music in their daily life. but when it comes to offering up music to God as a praise offering I'm not so sure you would want to take a pagan song (music) and regift it back to God, when it says He's a jealous God, it means HE is a JEALOUS GOD, and wants something original from your heart, not some repackaged music created for paganism.

I'm saying if you're a Christian who goes to church and sings hymns, you're participating in Pagan ideas. I didn't approve or disapprove. But neither do I find it wrong to gift pagan songs to God. I.E. Muslims reference God as most merciful and most compassionate. Is it then wrong for me to reference my God, who is most merciful, and most compassionate, as most merciful and most compassionate? No. It's the context which you use it. It'd be wrong to sing a Pagan song to a Pagan god, but to sing a Pagan song to God, if it is true of God, is not wrong. And to say otherwise is very Pharisaical. That's like saying you can't play piano during worship music because Bartolomeo Cristofori was not a Christian (I have no idea what his religious beliefs were).

I didn't know God wanted something original. Guess I better stop praying the Lord's prayer. Guess I better stop calling God the God of peace, or of grace, or as being compassionate and merciful. I'm sorry. I guess I just didn't know that the Bible states that we must create something because God is artistic and only wants artistic people to create songs for Him. Good grief! Don't you know every piece of art is stolen from the idea of something else!

You misunderstood me, but perhaps you completely overlooked the flaw in your own argument. If you want to be in a religion which is void of all pagan influences, well, you better start a new breed of Christianity, because it doesn't exist.

Rather I say, God doesn't care how we worship, just so long as it's from the heart, in truth.

MichaelKelley · Jul 6, 2011

coconut711 said:
I originally posted this in the contemp. christian thread, but I figured Id post it here too. I just want to hear people's opinions and what not. Not really looking for a debate or anything. I'm just bored...and curious

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Rom 12:2

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm bored and would like some opinions. With that verse (Rom 12:2) in mind do you think contemporary christian music is ok? I know many people who would say that christian rock, rap, metal, etc etc would be conforming to the world's standards. I'm troubled by that because I LOVE music. As an example lets say there's a heavy rock band that is made up of christian members. Some of their songs mention God, some dont, and some do but in a way that can have different meanings for different people of different faiths and views. Would that be conforming to the world? Where do you draw the line on these things? I would like your opinions and inputs! Thanks

No, it's taking the music industry back for God. Joseph's brothers meant evil on him by selling him to the caravan, but God turned that on its head and meant it for good. The devil meant contemporary music for evil, but God is turning that on its head for good, for His glory, through people like the late Larry Norman, Lecrae, etc.

As Larry Norman once said, Why should the devil have all the good music? Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?!

Standing_Ultraviolet · Jul 6, 2011

I've always found the idea that CCM is conforming to the world to be slightly strange, to say the least. A lot of contemporary songs are, at the very least, just as devout as older hymns. I don't really like going to church services where Christian rock music is played, but that's more a matter of personal preference, and I still enjoy them (I like the music itself; it's just that I prefer a calmer, more traditional service).

Eleiou · Jul 6, 2011

Hammster said:
Amazing Grace was sung to a bar tune.

A "bar" tune in musical jargon is "bar form" (AABA)............ not

But the lyrics are pretty good.

yup

Eleiou · Jul 6, 2011

MichaelKelley said:
As Larry Norman once said, Why should the devil have all the good music? Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?!

I'm pretty sure Mr. Norman was quoting Martin Luther about the "devil" having good music

spiritman1 · Jul 6, 2011

faceofbear said:
I'm saying if you're a Christian who goes to church and sings hymns, you're participating in Pagan ideas. I didn't approve or disapprove. But neither do I find it wrong to gift pagan songs to God. I.E. Muslims reference God as most merciful and most compassionate. Is it then wrong for me to reference my God, who is most merciful, and most compassionate, as most merciful and most compassionate? No. It's the context which you use it. It'd be wrong to sing a Pagan song to a Pagan god, but to sing a Pagan song to God, if it is true of God, is not wrong. And to say otherwise is very Pharisaical. That's like saying you can't play piano during worship music because Bartolomeo Cristofori was not a Christian (I have no idea what his religious beliefs were).

I didn't know God wanted something original. Guess I better stop praying the Lord's prayer. Guess I better stop calling God the God of peace, or of grace, or as being compassionate and merciful. I'm sorry. I guess I just didn't know that the Bible states that we must create something because God is artistic and only wants artistic people to create songs for Him. Good grief! Don't you know every piece of art is stolen from the idea of something else!

You misunderstood me, but perhaps you completely overlooked the flaw in your own argument. If you want to be in a religion which is void of all pagan influences, well, you better start a new breed of Christianity, because it doesn't exist.

Rather I say, God doesn't care how we worship, just so long as it's from the heart, in truth.

God doesn't care how we worship?............can I ask you if its your belief that God didn't care about how He was worshiped in the old testiment?......Don't get me wrong! I am fully aware we are no longer under law and under old covenant, but did God not care about how He was worshiped then?........again I think you are of the mindset that I endorse those mind numbing hymns that are in some archiac english much of which I couldn't tell you what they mean or would care to sing today, as you stated they were reformated bar tunes, guess you had to hammer a few cold ones to really enjoy them, not much of a joyful noise I would imagine. You see I am kinda arguing both sides of the coin, do we make our Christian songs sound like what everyone eles is singing to themselves, and in the medias or do we sing old english hymns that had there time and place 200 years ago, when they were the only game in town. I wouldn't mind someone singing a NEW SONG, wouldn't even mind if it had a fast tempo and some good drums. I'm just wondering why it has to be so much like what the world is doing, it sorta loses its significance and specialness, when it sounds like just another top 40 hit.

spiritman1 · Jul 7, 2011

MichaelKelley said:
No, it's taking the music industry back for God. Joseph's brothers meant evil on him by selling him to the caravan, but God turned that on its head and meant it for good. The devil meant contemporary music for evil, but God is turning that on its head for good, for His glory, through people like the late Larry Norman, Lecrae, etc.

As Larry Norman once said, Why should the devil have all the good music? Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?!

thats awesome!.....I'm thinking we should do the same thing with ouija boards and tarrot cards, I can just see it! "talk to God and get the answers you need TODAY! christian ouija boards coming to a walmart store near you!......what satan meant for evil, christians turned it around for the glory of God!......Hmmm......maybe thats the same idea they had when people got hooked on heroin, and they invented methadone as a "GOOD" substitute, won't get you high but will keep you from needing a fix for awhile.......thats kinda how I see christian rock.....its the mediocre fix that keeps you from listening to real rock n roll......for awhile!....lets face it, nothing has ever come close to the real rock n roll music, just mediocre methadone that is a temporary fix! you would think if God was behind it He could outdo some of rock n rolls legends, but anyone who listens to Rock will tell you no christian rock song or group has ever come close to the real rock legends and thats just a fact of life

javaqueen · Jul 7, 2011

dies-l said:
You talk about this like this is a new phenomenon. There was a time when churches would bend over backwards to get the "rockstar" composer of their day (e.g., Bach, Brahms) to come work for them so that they could draw all sorts of people to their church. Very few of the contemporary churches are doing anything anywhere near as brazen to attract crowds. Ultimately, all that has been done is that one style of music (e.g., classical hymns) has been replaced with another (contemporary).

I don't have any problem with how you choose to worship. In fact, if it were completely my choice (I'm married, so it is a partnership decision, not mine alone), I would probably attend a church with more traditional music. But, what I have found is that, no matter what kind of music is playing, there will be people who are genuinely worshiping God and some who are there to critique the music. I have also found that people who are there to worship God, generally don't care what kind of music is playing; they would worship to Stomp if they had to.

I'm sorry, but your assumptions here are just incorrect. I could point to dozens of committed Christians in my church alone who were nonbelievers, came at the invitation of a friend, were surprised to learn that church doesn't have to be like the stereotype, came back because they enjoyed being in church, heard the Gospel, came to Christ, and now serve him wholeheartedly. Granted, music alone would not cause this, but music, combined with a warm fellowship and a solid Gospel message can and does attract nonbelievers.

It sounds like your non-Christian friend is reacting to a church that is full of hypocrisy. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the style of music that they worship with.

Very few of the songs at my church are "just the same phrases over and over" and they are no more "set to repetitive rhythms and tunes" than are most traditional hymns.

Interestingly, I have never seen that happen.

Let's be honest. Contemporary music is not your cup of tea. I get that, and that is fine. Please, keep going to the church that you enjoy worshiping at. But, if others choose to worship God differently than you, that is not a crime or sin, or even wrong. It is a matter of preference. I would much rather be in a room full of people genuinely worshiping to the loudest heavy metal I could imagine than with a bunch people just going through the motions with the most sacred of hymns. And, generally, I find that the people who complain the most about the music, whatever it may be, tend to be the ones who are least interested in genuine worship.

I have attended a number of different churches over the years and would also rather be in a room full of people genuinely worshiping to the loudest heavy metal, than just going through the motions because it is what they have done for the past 20 years. Real worship comes from the heart - not necessarily what we are singing, and we don't have to be singing to worship God. Reading His word and focusing on His Love and Grace and Mercy are worshiping God. Daily walking with Him, much more important.

I play piano and I have played the traditional hymns and the contemporary songs as well, either one doesn't matter to me.........where my heart is when I am playing is what is important.

I also feel that we should preach the gospel at every opportunity - speak if necessary - let your actions be what attracts others to come to know God for who He is and what He has done for us.

coconut711 · Jul 7, 2011

spiritman1 said:
thats awesome!.....I'm thinking we should do the same thing with ouija boards and tarrot cards, I can just see it! "talk to God and get the answers you need TODAY! christian ouija boards coming to a walmart store near you!......what satan meant for evil, christians turned it around for the glory of God!......Hmmm......maybe thats the same idea they had when people got hooked on heroin, and they invented methadone as a "GOOD" substitute, won't get you high but will keep you from needing a fix for awhile.......thats kinda how I see christian rock.....its the mediocre fix that keeps you from listening to real rock n roll......for awhile!....lets face it, nothing has ever come close to the real rock n roll music, just mediocre methadone that is a temporary fix! you would think if God was behind it He could outdo some of rock n rolls legends, but anyone who listens to Rock will tell you no christian rock song or group has ever come close to the real rock legends and thats just a fact of life

Ouija boards, tarrot cards, heroin, etc are all bad by themselves. Rock music is not. Now, dont' get me wrong a lot of Rock music is bad because it is closely knit with drugs, immorality, etc, but just the guitars, drums, and singers are not bad by themselves. Where did hymns come from? I'm sure when hymns were created there were also many other songs of similar sounds being sang for other things than God. "If God was behind it He could outdo some of the rock n rolls legends" That is all up to opinions. Many "legends" are legends I'm sure because many people idolize their immoral lifestyles. Just because there aren't being millions of Cds of certain christan artists doesn't mean they're bad. Of course there are going to be a lot of people who won't like them because they dont want to think on the things of God.

dies-l · Jul 7, 2011

spiritman1 said:
thats awesome!.....I'm thinking we should do the same thing with ouija boards and tarrot cards, I can just see it! "talk to God and get the answers you need TODAY! christian ouija boards coming to a walmart store near you!......what satan meant for evil, christians turned it around for the glory of God!......Hmmm......maybe thats the same idea they had when people got hooked on heroin, and they invented methadone as a "GOOD" substitute, won't get you high but will keep you from needing a fix for awhile.......thats kinda how I see christian rock.....its the mediocre fix that keeps you from listening to real rock n roll......for awhile!....lets face it, nothing has ever come close to the real rock n roll music, just mediocre methadone that is a temporary fix! you would think if God was behind it He could outdo some of rock n rolls legends, but anyone who listens to Rock will tell you no christian rock song or group has ever come close to the real rock legends and thats just a fact of life

Ouija boards and tarot cards are inherently bad in that they seek input (whether real or imagined) from evil spirits. Heroin is bad because it destroys the body (and methadone is not much better).

Rock is "bad" it seems in your estimation because it is connected with immoral messages and conduct. So, if you remove the immoral messages and conduct, then there is no problem.

And, the fact that most CCM is just not very good does not make it any more demonic than a bad church choir or a bad church pianist.

JCFantasy23 · Jul 7, 2011

coconut711 said:
I originally posted this in the contemp. christian thread, but I figured Id post it here too. I just want to hear people's opinions and what not. Not really looking for a debate or anything. I'm just bored...and curious

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Rom 12:2

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm bored and would like some opinions. With that verse (Rom 12:2) in mind do you think contemporary christian music is ok? I know many people who would say that christian rock, rap, metal, etc etc would be conforming to the world's standards. I'm troubled by that because I LOVE music. As an example lets say there's a heavy rock band that is made up of christian members. Some of their songs mention God, some dont, and some do but in a way that can have different meanings for different people of different faiths and views. Would that be conforming to the world? Where do you draw the line on these things? I would like your opinions and inputs! Thanks

Music will always evolve, it's an art form. Even the older hymns were new once! I don't see how it could be considered bad to get new music to worship by in, how would this be a bad thing??

faceofbear · Jul 7, 2011

spiritman1 said:
God doesn't care how we worship?............can I ask you if its your belief that God didn't care about how He was worshiped in the old testiment?......Don't get me wrong! I am fully aware we are no longer under law and under old covenant, but did God not care about how He was worshiped then?........again I think you are of the mindset that I endorse those mind numbing hymns that are in some archiac english much of which I couldn't tell you what they mean or would care to sing today, as you stated they were reformated bar tunes, guess you had to hammer a few cold ones to really enjoy them, not much of a joyful noise I would imagine. You see I am kinda arguing both sides of the coin, do we make our Christian songs sound like what everyone eles is singing to themselves, and in the medias or do we sing old english hymns that had there time and place 200 years ago, when they were the only game in town. I wouldn't mind someone singing a NEW SONG, wouldn't even mind if it had a fast tempo and some good drums. I'm just wondering why it has to be so much like what the world is doing, it sorta loses its significance and specialness, when it sounds like just another top 40 hit.

God said that we are to worship him in spirit and in truth. If you can't worship him in spirit and in truth through singing choruses, than don't. But I can, thus it doesn't make it wrong for me. However, I get your point. I don't like choruses. I'm just saying, it shouldn't matter how we worship, so much as that our worship is in truth before God. That is, do you think God cares if you have a good voice or a bad voice? No. So long as you sing in truth. I think God couldn't care less if there are drums in a song as opposed to piano solos, again, as long as it is worship in truth. If you get caught up on the legality of this issue and say, "God only prefers this, that, and the other," you are no longer worshiping him in spirit, but in law. Which isn't worship at all.

His_disciple3 · Jul 7, 2011

the Contemporary Music that I have seen and heard, make people lift their hands up in praise to Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, some may even bounce with the music a little while praising Him, so since I have never seen the world or worldly people praising God then I would have to say no , comtemporary music is not " conforming to the world"!!!!

His_disciple3 · Jul 7, 2011

spiritman1 said:
good point! David wasn't concerned of what others thought of his worship his focus wasn't what those watching in the stands thought, it was completely focused on what he thought God would want. and this is exactly why God said David was a man after his heart. David never cared what the crowds thought, he was always determined to do what he thought God wanted..........this is completely different today, Its all done to the liking of those in the pews and seats, the focus is pleasing the crowds entertaining them, and making their experience a pleasurable one,.......hopfully God enjoyed it is only a secondary thought

I guess it is the way one would view God then, I think David pleased God by praising him. so is pleasing God; sitting still listening to psalms played over a golden harp? or is pleasing God; people bouncing with hands up in praise listening to "Amazing Grace my chains are gone" I say both, For I believe God loves the praise of His people toward Him and, I must rebuke you out of love for our God, in that you can not see the hearts of people you do not know if they are there for the entertainment or for worship. so my friend even if there is someone there trying to please themselves or for show there is no way you can know this for sure, so by judging their motives you are seeing the splinter in their eye through the beam you have in your eye. couldn't we put the sin you want to put on churches who uses contemporary music on all churches and the music they use , I mean even at your own church how many would complain or even leave if someone changed your style of music they are used to, so even your hymns or southern gospel is pleasing to the people at your Church, so that is why you use it. does that please God, yes you praise Him. even so at those that don't do like you do it, they praise Him also!

phoenixdem · Jul 11, 2011

MichaelKelley said:
No, it's taking the music industry back for God. Joseph's brothers meant evil on him by selling him to the caravan, but God turned that on its head and meant it for good. The devil meant contemporary music for evil, but God is turning that on its head for good, for His glory, through people like the late Larry Norman, Lecrae, etc.

As Larry Norman once said, Why should the devil have all the good music? Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?!

If it was good, the devil wouldn't want it.

spiritman1 · Jul 11, 2011

His_disciple3 said:
I guess it is the way one would view God then, I think David pleased God by praising him. so is pleasing God; sitting still listening to psalms played over a golden harp? or is pleasing God; people bouncing with hands up in praise listening to "Amazing Grace my chains are gone" I say both, For I believe God loves the praise of His people toward Him and, I must rebuke you out of love for our God, in that you can not see the hearts of people you do not know if they are there for the entertainment or for worship. so my friend even if there is someone there trying to please themselves or for show there is no way you can know this for sure, so by judging their motives you are seeing the splinter in their eye through the beam you have in your eye. couldn't we put the sin you want to put on churches who uses contemporary music on all churches and the music they use , I mean even at your own church how many would complain or even leave if someone changed your style of music they are used to, so even your hymns or southern gospel is pleasing to the people at your Church, so that is why you use it. does that please God, yes you praise Him. even so at those that don't do like you do it, they praise Him also!

I'm actually not against recreating church music to bring it out of the dark ages, I'm just pointing out a trend that seems to be trying to make church, more like a rock concert than what we see written plainly in the bible as to what is suppossed to be happening in a church service. Now if you want to have a rock concert for Jesus thats your business. I just believe the bible is timeless for wisedom and understanding and church doctrine and is authoritive for church guidlines, if you see that as legalism, I certainly understand, the bible is rarely used as a guide, more like a second opinion these days, I've seen what Christian Rock brought a minister and his family and I'm no longer convinced it was such a great idea as I once used to, I used to be fully convinced making the church more appealing to the secular world was the best thing it could possibly do, but as a result and there has been a result, a little leaven has ruined the whole loaf, now a days its hard to find a real Christian, one that believes the bible is true....many say they believe it but when asked pointed questions......well....thats another story

dies-l · Jul 11, 2011

Couldn't the question in the OP be asked about any number of things?
Like:

"Is playing softball 'conforming to the world'"?
"Are potluck dinners 'conforming to the world'"?
"Is reading "Christian" books 'conforming to the world'"?

And so on. . . .

These are really no different.

WannaWitness · Jul 11, 2011

For anyone interested, here is a link regarding this very topic, from a balanced point of view (somewhat similar to my own, with maybe a couple of exceptions). It makes for some insightful reading, if anything. It's quite long, so it's advisable to save it to the hard drive and read it in sections.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050910210018/http://members.aol.com/etb700/ccm.html

Standing_Ultraviolet · Jul 11, 2011

phoenixdem said:
If it was good, the devil wouldn't want it.

Unfortunately, this isn't always true. Many sins are associated with things that aren't inherently evil.

dies-l · Jul 11, 2011

GlobalWolf2010 said:
Unfortunately, this isn't always true. Many sins are associated with things that aren't inherently evil.

This is true:

Sex is good. But, the devil loves to use it to lead us to sin (adultery, lust, porn, etc.)

Food is good. But, the devil loves to use it to lead us to overindulge.

And on and on we could go.

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