Is Calvinism mainly dependent on the writings of Paul?

netzarim said:

YHWH chose Israel. Israel means "those who struggle with YHWH for His blessing". Both chose each other, as husband & wife chooses one another. All the true faithful have chosen to be and are part of Israel.

Click to expand...

Israel was very unfaithful. God uses the picture of Hosea to show how God Himself had married a prostitute-someone who was incapable of being faithful.

netzarim said:

Correct. National Israel is not one and the same as spiritual Israel.

Click to expand...

Agreed.
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Paul uses Israel in Romans 9 as an example of God's electing love which can be seen all throughout the history of Israel.

but in answer to your question, no. Calvinism can be seen in the Gospels especially the book of John.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


John 15:16 being one example

Good question by the way.

I don't really know but boy is calvinism scary to me.Seriously the idea that you might not be saved and that God unconditionally hates you for sins He made you do and your going to hell and you can't do anything about it is just terrifying

horrace99 said:

I don't really know but boy is calvinism scary to me.Seriously the idea that you might not be saved and that God unconditionally hates you for sins He made you do and your going to hell and you can't do anything about it is just terrifying

Click to expand...

I have had quite a few people make the same statement to me when I share Calvinism with them. I tell them that unless God did reach down and save some, none would be saved, since our natural "man" would never seek after God. Also, the lost (unsaved) do not fear over their salvation. Satan does not attack their hearts with such worries (if they are saved or not). The enemy only does this with the saved, as he'd never attack those who are already "his" with this lie! The enemy only attacks the truth. So, when someone asks me, "What if I'm not saved or elect? I'm scared". I tell them that a lost person doesn't fear God or worry over it. When Paul commanded in the scriptures to "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith", this command was from God, through Paul, to Christians to "make your calling and election sure".. don't take it for granted.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy simply because He has the right as the Almighty. It's hard to wrap our minds around this, I know, because I used to have the same mind-set about "election" until God drew me to see it!

Blessings and thanks for your post.

horrace99 said:

I don't really know but boy is calvinism scary to me.Seriously the idea that you might not be saved and that God unconditionally hates you for sins He made you do and your going to hell and you can't do anything about it is just terrifying

Click to expand...

Good to see you back again. Been a while.

crimsonleaf said:

Good to see you back again. Been a while.

Click to expand...

Yep I have been really busy.And boy are the atheists i'm debating on this site hard hearted

Shulamite said:

I have had quite a few people make the same statement to me when I share Calvinism with them. I tell them that unless God did reach down and save some, none would be saved, since our natural "man" would never seek after God. Also, the lost (unsaved) do not fear over their salvation. Satan does not attack their hearts with such worries (if they are saved or not). The enemy only does this with the saved, as he'd never attack those who are already "his" with this lie! The enemy only attacks the truth. So, when someone asks me, "What if I'm not saved or elect? I'm scared". I tell them that a lost person doesn't fear God or worry over it. When Paul commanded in the scriptures to "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith", this command was from God, through Paul, to Christians to "make your calling and election sure".. don't take it for granted.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy simply because He has the right as the Almighty. It's hard to wrap our minds around this, I know, because I used to have the same mind-set about "election" until God drew me to see it!

Blessings and thanks for your post.

Click to expand...

well I guess that makes me feel better.

No matter how scary I find it , Jesus said:Thy will be done.

God can do whatever He pleases no matter what I think of it because His ways are above mine in every way

Shulamite said:

I have had quite a few people make the same statement to me when I share Calvinism with them. I tell them that unless God did reach down and save some, none would be saved, since our natural "man" would never seek after God. Also, the lost (unsaved) do not fear over their salvation. Satan does not attack their hearts with such worries (if they are saved or not). The enemy only does this with the saved, as he'd never attack those who are already "his" with this lie! The enemy only attacks the truth. So, when someone asks me, "What if I'm not saved or elect? I'm scared". I tell them that a lost person doesn't fear God or worry over it. When Paul commanded in the scriptures to "examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith", this command was from God, through Paul, to Christians to "make your calling and election sure".. don't take it for granted.

God will have mercy on whom He has mercy simply because He has the right as the Almighty. It's hard to wrap our minds around this, I know, because I used to have the same mind-set about "election" until God drew me to see it!

Blessings and thanks for your post.

Click to expand...

But you have to understand that you should not label yourself a calvinist because its a sin to take upon the name of men.

You know if he did not start the stuff that he preached then it would be foolish to label yourself after his name.Christian is the only true label we should have

horrace99 said:

You know if he did not start the stuff that he preached then it would be foolish to label yourself after his name.Christian is the only true label we should have

Click to expand...

Calvin would agree.

Unfortunately, there is so much hogwash out there under the name of 'Christian' that goes unchallenged, that the name is almost meaningless.

But then again, 'Calvinist' carries a lot of negative stereotype baggage that it's not very effective anymore, either. I prefer going by 'Reformed', myself.

"The truth is...that the sweetly attractive-human Jesus is a product of the 19th-century skepticism, produced by people who were ceasing to believe in His divinity but wanted to keep as much Christianity as they could. It is not what an unbeliever coming to the records with an open mind will (at first) find there. The first thing you find is that we are simply not invited to speak, to pass any moral judgment on Him, however favourable: it is only too clear that He is going to do whatever judging there is: it is we who are being judged, sometimes tenderly, sometimes with stunning severity."

C.S. Lewis

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah 6:9-10

I think this scenario would be an exhibit of
limited atonement

netzarim said:

As this is not the proper forum for debate, I will only comment that Yeshua prophesied that Peter would be led away by another to doctrines which Yeshua did not preach, and in this direction he (Peter) was warned that should not go (John 21:18); this appears to be the reason why Yeshua, in the same chapter, repeatedly warned Peter that he should 1) pay attention to feeding his lambs & sheep (with true doctrine), repeated three times, and 2) follow Yeshua (not anyone else), repeated twice. It appears Peter was led away by Paul to the latter's foreign doctrine ("grace only" vs. Yeshua's doctrine of "faith & faithfulness") in his possible endorsement of Paul's writings and elsewhere. In essence, Peter would fail to be a faithful witness for Messiah, whereas Messiah seems to hint that John's testimony would remain true to Him to the end (John 21:21).

Click to expand...

Uhh am I the only one who noticed a gross misunderstanding of Scripture here?

I won't say it's deliberate, but it's hard to believe that the verse was taken out of context considering if you just read a line later it explains why Jesus told Peter that he would be dragged away.

John specifically says that Jesus was only talking about the kind of death Peter would glorify God with, not that Peter would be led astray in the sense of teaching ungodly things. But that he would be dragged and killed by people in order to glorify God.

John 21:15-19
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go.” This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God. And after saying this he said to him, “Follow me.”

Also, unless Jesus' high priestly prayer failed (John 17), Peter was not lost and the Holy Spirit guided every apostle (including Paul whose writings were considered Scripture by Peter in 2 Peter 3:16). Afterall the 12 (except for Judas) were not of the world (John 17:14), and Jesus asked the Father to sanctify them in the truth, which is His word (John 17:17).

2 Peter 3:14-18
Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

But if you don't walk away with anything else, it's that John 21:18 is not about Peter falling away in doctrine or sin. In fact it actually seems to imply the opposite; that Peter will glorify God even in his death.

netzarim said:

Correct. National Israel is not one and the same as spiritual Israel.

Click to expand...

Just wondering for my own understanding of where you are coming from: what Scriptures do you hold to that support this conclusion?

I hold to it because of Paul's writings. I would just like to know why you believe it.