• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

ByTheSpirit

Come Lord Jesus
May 17, 2011
11,460
4,689
Manhattan, KS
✟198,584.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

This is true, but the conflict between Calvinism and the gospel is, Calvin says a person is saved by a sovereign act of election by God alone. So all those scriptures that state, believe, believe, believe, are just nonsense because man (according to Calvin) cannot believe. Man is elected. All the untold multitudes who arent "elected" never even have the chance to believe, and thus the conflict.

God desires all to repent, not just a select few.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,482
8,280
Dallas
✟1,060,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

How does this line up with Hebrews 6:4-8?

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
Upvote 0

Kate30

Active Member
Mar 20, 2019
328
230
Oz
✟63,351.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The Op’s Summary is a fair analysis except for maybe the question of belief, for all do believe and do know of God to some degree. Even the devils and the atheist do know this as much they would like to deny. It’s the age old question being asked here once more. And that is why does God choose to save some while passing over others leaving them in their condemned plight. We do not fully know. John Calvin merely confirms what the Apostle Paul and the Holy Scripture does say on the matter nothing more nothing less. But we do know that it is God that clearly chooses. ( For He has chosen us and we not him ) as the Scripture clearly says. Arthur Pinks book ( mans total depravity ) may be of some help to those who would like to enquire deeper to see if God is really jUST in doing so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,482
8,280
Dallas
✟1,060,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Actually I believe He said this because they didn’t know He is God. I don’t believe Christ was saying that He is not good, because He is God and God is good all the time.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,680
1,895
✟960,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There are four different scenarios in Luke 15:
The coin (it does not know it is lost and does not know the way back, so the woman seeks it out), the sheep (knows it is lost but not the way back, so the shepherd seeks it out) and the younger brother (know he is lost and know the way back, so the father waits for him to come to his senses on his own and hopeful decide to return) and the older brother who thinks he is "doing everything right and not lost", but is really lost.
 
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,482
8,280
Dallas
✟1,060,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

I believe God will enable every single person who will accept His offer of grace. I believe His election is based on His foreknowledge of who will believe and abide in Christ to the end.
 
Reactions: Tra Phull
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,482
8,280
Dallas
✟1,060,085.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Interesting perspective thanks for sharing that. I will have to take a closer look at these.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,680
1,895
✟960,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Vessels of wrath were prepared for destruction as the vessels of mercy were prepared for glory.. Don’t see how this doesn’t answer your question starting with vs 14. Paul basically anticipates your question
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

TrustNHim9119

New Member
Dec 4, 2019
4
0
33
Dayton
✟15,625.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

Best response I've seen so far.

So it is just that trillions of people who had absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve’s sin will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity?

Everyone has had the ability to choose to serve God. God knows if we are truly seeking Him (it may be how I came to be saved, where I was genuinely seeking truth, not even knowing at the time that God is truth), and He will always provide a way for us to recieve salvation and have a relationship with Him.

There is no excuse.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I believe God will enable every single person who will accept His offer of grace. I believe His election is based on His foreknowledge of who will believe and abide in Christ to the end.
Why would that deserve to be described as "election" at all?
 
Upvote 0

Daniel C

Well-Known Member
Nov 22, 2018
1,144
426
England
✟23,778.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single


If a person receives the message of the Gospel and rejects it there are no more opportunities for them to be saved. Reprobate.
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,680
1,895
✟960,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,680
1,895
✟960,955.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Christ is perfect, Adam and Eve were made "very good", but they were not clones of Christ since Christ was not made and they were for one thing.
 
Upvote 0

Skidder

Well-Known Member
Nov 14, 2019
460
226
East
✟44,728.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
I know this post will probably fester a few KJV purists, but oh well...

Why don't your read that in another translation? Most of the other translations, including NKJV, translate the Greek "being saved" which makes more sense. If that translation was correct no one could ever be saved. It would be foolishness for everyone, but the saved. Those who are perishing are those who reject the cross, unto death, and they will surely die in their sins.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. -NKJV

I'm not against the KJV, but I've studied the Greek, and I believe the KJV is incorrect with that verse. Salvation is more than just past tense, but also present and offered TO ALL. Those who will believe (according to His foreknowledge) are BEING SAVED from the penalty of sin everyday by faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and through that same precious love story WE (Christians) are also BEING SAVED from the POWER OF SIN as we continue to reckon a GRACE THAT IS SUFFICIENT. The cross of Christ if freedom from both: the PENALTY of sin, and the everyday POWER of sin. So yes everyday we are BEING SAVED saved through faith in Christ Crucified, and also unbelievers (those who will eventually believe, who don't find the cross foolish) are also BEING SAVED from the penalty of sin by that same precious love story. Again I'm not against the KJV, for it is still one of the most accurate, but I don't agree with the translation in this particular verse.

Foreknowledge is the key to freedom from Calvinism. God knows who will believe and who will not, but that doesn't mean he takes away their choice, and doesn't keep convicting them of their sin UNTO faith in Christ...

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
 
Reactions: Tra Phull
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,558.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

There are many who use this verse out of context to present a view that Jesus isn't God. I believe you have also taken the verse out of context when you say Jesus didn't think He was good.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟82,714.00
Country
Switzerland
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Correct. Calvinism presents God as totally unjust. The worst part of the theory is what itdiestk those who hold it after a time. They become either irrational in their faith, that is, they cannot possibly understand God or they become like the God they believe is there, hard towards the fate of others. This is the saddest part.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
If there is any truth to that generalization, it doesn't owe to Calvinism any more than the POVs of other denominations make those people self-righteous, irrational, credulous, hard towards the fate of others, or the like.
 
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0