Is Calvinism Just?

[Dave L]

No Dave, here's the clincher...
Total depravity must mean total depravity before we can understand he POWER that freed us from total depravity.

If God had to make a person a believer, than the Gospel lacks the power UNTO salvation. So basically Calvinism is a direct attack on the cross of Christ. No choice but to believe, and no choice but to burn is no choice in the cross.

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

 

[Albion]

So, kind of yes, kind of no?

I suppose that depends on what is meant by the term you chose--"Reformed Anglican." Virtually no Anglican is "Reformed" in the sense of being a full-fledged Calvinist, yet all Anglicans are members of a reformed church, it having reformed the corrupt practices and beliefs of the Medieval Church.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't see how it can be God's fault, so it's the fault of Adam and Eve.

So it is just that trillions of people who had absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve’s sin will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity?

 

[Albion]

So it is just that trillions of people who had absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve’s sin will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity?

We are all descendants of our parents, are we not, and share much that has been inherited from them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Only so far as the first of those statements is concerned, and it is quite possible that we misinterpret it to be a comment on the subject of Election when it means something else.

Like what?

 

[BNR32FAN]

We are all descendants of our parents, are we not, and share much that has been inherited from them.

Everyone is a descendant of Adam and Eve. So the inherited nature does not only apply to the condemned but also to the elect.

 

[Albion]

Like what?

a fallen nature.

You have read Genesis, I assume, and remember the consequences meted out to Adam and Eve and their progeny as a result of their fall in Eden.

 

[Albion]

Everyone is a descendant of Adam and Eve. So the inherited nature does not only apply to the condemned but also to the elect.

Yes.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I suppose that depends on what is meant by the term you chose--"Reformed Anglican." Virtually no Anglican is "Reformed" in the sense of being a full-fledged Calvinist, yet all Anglicans are members of a reformed church, it having reformed the corrupt practices and beliefs of the Medieval Church.

But do you adhere to any of the, as it were, five points of Calvinistic theology? Just wondering. I know some Anglicans did and do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

But is do they perish because the cross is foolishness to them or is the cross foolishness to them because they perish? Same with those who are saved, do we understand that the cross the power of God because we are saved or are we saved because we understand that the cross is the power of God?

 

[Dave L]

Here's how I see it. God created Adam perfect. But with a "sovereign" nature in God's image, that would want to sin and enjoy it if given a law. He thereby proved we are a corrupt species and love our sins more than we love God. In fact we hate him. So hell is fitting punishment for sins of this magnitude.

 

[Dave L]

But is do they perish because the cross is foolishness to them or is the cross foolishness to them because they perish? Same with those who are saved, do we understand that the cross the power of God because we are saved or are we saved because we understand that the cross is the power of God?

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes.

So again how is it just that trillions of people who had nothing to do with Adam & Eve’s sin will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity?

 

[Albion]

But do you adhere to any of the, as it were, five points of Calvinistic theology? Just wondering. I know some Anglicans did and do.

I know very few Anglicans who DO accept all the TULIP points, and those that do are certainly not "Calvinists" in any other sense.

Frankly, I myself am not certain--beyond what the Article (Thirty-nine Articles) says concerning Predestination--which of the several views is correct or how knowing the right answer would affect our lives as Christians.

But as I said before, the predestinarians seem to be to have the far better argument. Freewillers and believers in works righteousness have a weak argument to make in defense of their POV if we look closely at it.

 

[Albion]

So again how is it just that trillions of people who had nothing to do with Adam & Eve’s sin will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity?

We are NOT disconnected from Adam and Eve, although you may want to see us as simply appearing in the cabbage patch somehow. God created the human RACE, and we are part of it. The Jews certainly understood this. See Exodus 20:5 and Exodus 34:7, for example.

 

[renniks]

Vessels of wrath were prepared for destruction as the vessels of mercy were prepared for glory.. Don’t see how this doesn’t answer your question starting with vs 14. Paul basically anticipates your question

Why were the prepared for destruction? Unconditionally or because of something they did?

 

[-57]

This is in reference to whosoever does not believe in Him as an end result. Not whosoever does not currently believe in Him.

You need to read the surrounding verses and place it in its proper context.

 

[-57]

No I completely understand that all have this fallen state which they have been created in by God. Man has absolutely no choice about his sinful nature. Who’s fault is it that man has this fallen nature to begin with? Adam’s? God’s?

I would say Adams with the help of Satan.

 

[-57]

No Dave, here's the clincher...
Total depravity must mean total depravity before we can understand the POWER that freed us from total depravity.

If God had to make a person a believer, than the Gospel lacks the power UNTO salvation. So basically Calvinism is a direct attack on the cross of Christ. No choice but to believe, and no choice but to burn is no choice in the cross.

Acts 16:14 strongly disagree with your view...Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

If God didn't open Lydias heart she would not be a believer in Jesus.

 

[lsume]

I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and we can expound upon this in the thread. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.


Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.


The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.


n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man


So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter?

Ive not read all of your thread but enough to say that your correct about needing to experience God’s Love First before you can be born again. You must ultimately put all of your faith in God and His Goodness. Even Christ did not consider Himself to be good.


Mark.10

1. 
   [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

1. 
   

When you are Truly born again, you will absolutely positively know it and you won’t forget it.