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I'm not "convinced"
I follow you on contingency, but I think a randomness that could fail to produce brings up some some issues regarding God's ability and intentions. I know you are still thinking through it but that should be avoided or at least side lined for contingency imo. I guess you could consider a restrained randomness which these new theories might provide. Random mutation is no longer a default explanation and must now compete with other naturalistic mechanisms so there is some room there to consider a randomness between and constrained by contingent mechanisms.That is where the metaphysics (if you can call it that) of creationism breaks down. The notion that either the randomizing element contained in the evolutionary process or the contingency of the process as a whole constitute a barrier to telos I find to be inadequate and uninformed.
You mean the belief that we have a sin nature inherited from Adam, which means we sin because we're sinners, rather than we're sinners because we sin?Thus, is creationism as a belief required to be a Christian?
Here is one example. As an undergraduate we went out to some fields in the Midland Valley of Scotland. We laid out geophones then set off some explosives. The sound waves reflected off a subterranean boundary, were sensed by the geophones and their arrival times recorded.This also is subject to fraudulent people trying to gain funds for experiments that prove nothing but there own speculation.
The sad thing is , now no offence here ok? its just a epidemic going on right now , and this goes for all people who follow others lies.
Its sad who you can follow other people with no proof on this subject like ICR RATE team but not Christians .
I have studied this myself and in all my studies I have found not one of these so called scientific groups have real testable proof to anything.
Just hear say.
So you dont do the tests but you follow others who say they have and you belive them with no proof.
What makes you think I am "undecided?" I accept the theory of evolution as a plausible and well-evidenced explanation for the diversity of life. I accept it with the provisionality which is built into all scientific theories. I am not "convinced" of its "truth" because in the end it may prove to be wrong, just like any other scientific theory.Thanks for telling me that, I misunderstood, if you are undecided, then you have no solid stance/reason to debate this, the reason I won't reply to your other comments.
Seriously, why debate an issue that you don't even know is an issue or not?
Consider this: Engineers now employ what they call "genetic algorithms" to design new components. That is, random variation and selection programs just like evolution running on computers. Do you suppose that because the algorithm begins with random variation, the components produced are without purpose? Consider this, also: The second-order evolutionary mechanisms to which you refer almost certainly evolved through the basic process of evolution by random variation and selection.I follow you on contingency, but I think a randomness that could fail to produce brings up some some issues regarding God's ability and intentions. I know you are still thinking through it but that should be avoided or at least side lined for contingency imo. I guess you could consider a restrained randomness which these new theories might provide. Random mutation is no longer a default explanation and must now compete with other naturalistic mechanisms so there is some room there to consider a randomness between and constrained by contingent mechanisms.
One can broaden this to note that the history of the universe has been one of the emergence of increasingly complex systems and entities. Intelligence would be a (current) end point of this process. I frequently wonder if science has not made an error by excluding the possibility of teleology. Certainly, viewing ongoing emergence as teleologically based would provide the necessary link between divine action and stochastic processes.But consider this: evolution shows tendencies toward convergence; several evolutionary lines have converged on the ability to fly, for example. How do you know that intelligence is not one of those points of convergence?
Arguably sound put down of the second paragraph, while totally ingoring the first paragraph. Science doesn't do proof. Live with it, or stop complaining.Now is that nice?
What if I where to say, "I guess it's really true what they say about the stupidity of the young and inexperienced people, they don't listen to all sides of the story, only the side that works for them."
But I would never accuse anyone of being stupid because they are young, any more than I would them being stubborn because they are old because it's just rude, and actually, in itself a cop out excuse to dismiss what they claim, as in, while in an argument, if I were to say:
"All young people are ignorant because they are young" as means of discounting a perfectly good point they may have.
See how that works?
This example makes the issue with God even worse as the purpose of the genetic algorithm is to acquire fitness efficiently due to the inefficiency of the one initiating the process. We do this because we don't know and it would take a lot to acquire the knowledge on our own. God should not need such a mechanism. It would still be design as you say, due to the installed parameter of fitness, but at the cost of God's maximal greatness.Consider this: Engineers now employ what they call "genetic algorithms" to design new components. That is, random variation and selection programs just like evolution running on computers. Do you suppose that because the algorithm begins with random variation, the components produced are without purpose? Consider this, also: The second-order evolutionary mechanisms to which you refer almost certainly evolved through the basic process of evolution by random variation and selection.
No. Belief in a literal creation isn't required.
Be suspicious of arguments in favor of a bare minimum threshold of belief required to be a Christian. It shouldn't be about how little dogma one is required to embrace.
This example makes the issue with God even worse as the purpose of the genetic algorithm is to acquire fitness efficiently due to the inefficiency of the one initiating the process. God should not need such a mechanism. It would still be design as you say, due to the installed parameter of fitness, but at the cost of God's maximal greatness.
I think you misunderstood. We use this mechanism because it's more efficient than from our own capability. God should not need an outside process to determine what would acquire increased fitness.Thinking that God must fit your definition of "efficient" is as wrong as people who think that God must fit their definition of "moral."
I think you misunderstood. We use this mechanism because it's more efficient than from our own capability. God should not need an outside process to determine what would acquire increased fitness.
You still misunderstand. A maximally great being does not require genetic algorithms to acquire knowledge about what changes would increase fitness. We require genetic algorithms to acquire knowledge about what changes would increase fitness because we are not maximally great. God, by definition, is a maximally great being. So if you are suggesting God requires genetic algorithms to acquire knowledge then you are not refering to the actual God - by definition.You said the same thing. God is not constrained by what you think He "should" do.
Not all interpretations of Genesis are equal. We shouldn't pander our intellectual egos to believe less than we should.True.
Well, no. Be suspicious of arguments in for more than the bare minimum of the assertions stated in the Apostle's Creed.
"I believe in God the Father, the Maker of Heaven and Earth" does not require that one believes He made it according to any particular interpretation of Genesis...or even that one has ever read Genesis.
Science doesn't do proof. Live with it, or stop complaining.
No it's doesn't.But does that mean a someone who doesn't believe God created life forms in that literal fashion can't be a Christian?
No it's not.Is this belief required to be a Christian?
I don't follow that at all. Why should using random variation and selection as a design technique be an imputation of inefficiency? It's rather like saying that it is more efficient for God to hold the planets in their orbits by an act of miraculous intervention than to let gravity do it.This example makes the issue with God even worse as the purpose of the genetic algorithm is to acquire fitness efficiently due to the inefficiency of the one initiating the process.
Be careful you do not confuse the two meanings of "design." In one sense, it means "purpose." In the other sense, it merely refers to the functional arrangement of component parts.We do this because we don't know and it would take a lot to acquire the knowledge on our own. God should not need such a mechanism. It would still be design as you say, due to the installed parameter of fitness, but at the cost of God's maximal greatness.
Strictly speaking, no, it is not proof. It is evidence that the water will be colder than before. It is evidence which confirms (not proves) your hypothesis. But evidently that distinction between proof and confirming evidence is lost on you because you can't get over the notion that we are trying to trick you or put something over on you.Is that not a science experiment? Is that not proof of my claim that water will be colder than before?
No, just confirming evidence. Personally, I don't care whether you call the confirming evidence of evolution proof, but you don't show any willingness to sit still for it whatever you call it.Here is what happened, they have no proof of evolution...
That is essentially the condition of the given example. The genetic algorithm is conditioned with a purpose in mind, it is designed to include fitness, as predefined, and exclude unfitness. Without that it is not a useful service.I don't follow that at all. Why should using random variation and selection as a design technique be an imputation of inefficiency? Be careful you do not confuse the two meanings of "design." In one sense, it means "purpose." In the other sense, it merely refers to the functional arrangement of component parts.
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