Is belief that a god exists a choice?

Chany · Dec 6, 2014

Belief is not a choice.

Looking up and exploring different alternatives is a choice. Closing oneself off from other alternatives is a choice. Following the natural consequences of a belief is a choice.

However, the belief itself is not a choice. No matter how hard I try, I cannot, by my own volition alone, make myself believe I am a chair.

Therefore, belief in a deity is not a choice.

faroukfarouk · Dec 6, 2014

angelkiss said:
I personally stick with, it's a choice. Each day, we have the "choice" to serve God, satan, whoever. I could "choose" to throw all of my beliefs aside and go a different direction. It is based more on what you truly "want". If we had no "choice" everyone would have the same perspective. Because of that choice, some believe in God or satan, some believe in both, some believe in neither, some believe in science and some believe in other Gods.

People can choose a different belief if they want to bad enough. I personally know of people who have done so. Sometimes it is due to curiosity, other times it is because they need a change in their life and their way isn't working. And some do it for other reasons. Bottom line is, they "chose" to believe what they believe because that is their desire.

Having said that, if a person has one track thinking, their beliefs may not seem like a choice. If you close your mind to other things, that becomes your only belief without option, leaving no room to allow yourself "choice". Basically, it differs depending on the person.

(Forgot to add this)
If beliefs are not a choice,
How does a person brought up with christian beliefs become athiest?
How does a person brought up with athiest beliefs become christian?
How is it a person who doesn't really believe in anything, start believing in something?
If there was no choice, would people not remain in what was instilled without waiver?

Hi angelkiss:

It's interesting that Philippians chapter 2 says 'it is God that works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

When the grace of God works in someone, then the person is also made willing to follow the Lord Jesus.

Blessings.

angelkiss · Dec 6, 2014

Chany said:
Belief is not a choice.

Looking up and exploring different alternatives is a choice. Closing oneself off from other alternatives is a choice. Following the natural consequences of a belief is a choice.

However, the belief itself is not a choice. No matter how hard I try, I cannot, by my own volition alone, make myself believe I am a chair.

Therefore, belief in a deity is not a choice.

Oh but the subject is about whether or not beliefs in a God is a choice.........I simply gave my own perspective on that. You have given yours. However, that chair seems irrelevant to the question, no?
I can't convince myself that I am anything other than human, yet I choose to believe in something.
I even step outside the box.....I once didn't believe in.....self. I didn't believe I was capable of finding love and happiness. I didn't believe my life was worth living. Once I changed the perspective and searching within myself, I found something I had chose to ignore for so long. I had to believe that I was capable of conquering my inner battles. I had to believe that I was entitled to love and happiness just as much as anyone else. Which led to choice.....choose to start believing in myself and that my life was worth living or continue down that path of loneliness and give up on everything.
Basically, we are given choices in all aspects. We have to figure out what we really want for ourselves.
That's just my own perspective that really has nothing to do with the actual topic, I was just giving an example of how we control what we want to believe or not believe. I believe those choices set our path in life.

NannaNae · Dec 6, 2014

sometimes those choices are just a shot in the dark which tell God you are 'willing to be made willing' that is just a seed of faith... that is how he dragged me though alot of this .. because I really was willing to see things his way.. even when I just didn't see it..I wished I did . most of the time I didn't. but I was willing to change.. because mankind sure don't have a dang thing to offer except mayhem and worse.
it is that inner fight where we are willing to wrestle out a place or a concept or a relationship with him that proves to each of us that not only is he real but he is more powerful then we are and way waywayway smarter..

angelkiss · Dec 6, 2014

Thank you.....Willing was the word I was fishing for when I used the term, "want" earlier.

Davian · Dec 6, 2014

2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, it is a choice; one who encounters Christianity has to make a decision within a limited span of time with partial evidence.

There is plenty of evidence, where absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Should there not be evidence for the existence of gods if gods exist?

2PhiloVoid said:
Some people see the glass half full, while others see it as empty.

Where claims of the glass being half full are unsubstantiated.

2PhiloVoid said:
It all depends on the epistemological expectations we individually bring to the table.

If we lower our epistemological bar enough for gods to jump over, we may also allow over fairies, pixies, reptilian humanoids, and extraterrestrial aliens visiting earth to make crop circles.

angelkiss · Dec 6, 2014

faroukfarouk said:
Hi angelkiss:

It's interesting that Philippians chapter 2 says 'it is God that works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'.

When the grace of God works in someone, then the person is also made willing to follow the Lord Jesus.

Blessings.

Right, but that only explains the Christian aspect of things. The basis I am trying to stick with is choice. However, since you mentioned it, willingness is the perfect word I was looking for. Which leads back to my point.....Beliefs of all kinds are a choice. Someone can go from one belief to the other to no beliefs by choice.
Not sure if that all came out right.

faroukfarouk · Dec 6, 2014

angelkiss said:
Right, but that only explains the Christian aspect of things. The basis I am trying to stick with is choice. However, since you mentioned it, willingness is the perfect word I was looking for. Which leads back to my point.....Beliefs of all kinds are a choice. Someone can go from one belief to the other to no beliefs by choice.
Not sure if that all came out right.

angelkiss: We can see things as perceived from a human perspective. And we can also understand things from a Divine perspective. Again from Philippians, in chapter one it says: "He that has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

I'm reminded of the footsteps in the sand story.

Blessings.

bhsmte · Dec 6, 2014

talquin said:
Is belief that a god exists a choice?

We feel it is a conscious choice, but what allows that feeling, is really deeper psychological rationalization to believe in something, that is driven by personal psychological need and is not a conscious decision.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 6, 2014

Davian

There is plenty of evidence, where absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Should there not be evidence for the existence of gods if gods exist?

Davian, part of the problem is that there is no decisive consensus on just what constitutes "evidence," nor is there a consensus on the methods (or even hermeneutics) to be used. Without which, we're all batting half-blindfolded.

Where claims of the glass being half full are unsubstantiated.

It is a rough analogy, not an argument or explanatory comment. So sure, if you want to be ultra-literal about it, it is more like the glass being 33.4 percent full. The real question is, "how thirsty are you?"

If we lower our epistemological bar enough for gods to jump over, we may also allow over fairies, pixies, reptilian humanoids, and extraterrestrial aliens visiting earth to make crop circles.

No one has 'lowered' any bars... Actually, I would contest the hegemony of just about any epistemological structure; they all have weaknesses reflecting the limitations of our human ingenuity. Let me be clear, though, I'm not saying we shouldn't appropriate them in our attempts to build various views and understandings of the world. It's just that we also need to recognize their limits.

As far as fairies, pixies, and the rest...do you know of any historical references we should look as to ascertain as to their existence?

Eudaimonist · Dec 6, 2014

angelkiss said:
I had to believe that I was entitled to love and happiness just as much as anyone else. Which led to choice.....choose to start believing in myself and that my life was worth living or continue down that path of loneliness and give up on everything.

I do believe that we are all capable of choosing our attitudes towards life, but that is different than choosing beliefs about what exists or not.

I am incapable of believing that the Moon is made of green cheese without some stunning evidence, just as I am incapable of believing in the existence of God without stunning evidence.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Tinker Grey · Dec 6, 2014

Davian said:
Where claims of the glass being half full are unsubstantiated.

The claims there is even a glass to fill are unsubstantiated.

angelkiss · Dec 6, 2014

Eudaimonist said:
I do believe that we are all capable of choosing our attitudes towards life, but that is different than choosing beliefs about what exists or not.

I am incapable of believing that the Moon is made of green cheese without some stunning evidence, just as I am incapable of believing in the existence of God without stunning evidence.

eudaimonia,

Mark

So, you choose to believe in only things of evidence.

I am ending on this note....

I respect people from all walks of life and normally don't and won't debate anything. Somehow I chose to put myself in the middle of this topic as well as, find others' opinions quite interesting. I do not try and change people's minds about anything, I say what I have to say and people either take it in stride or they don't. As a Christian with my own beliefs, I refuse to beat someone over the head with scripture and I do not force my beliefs on no one. As someone who was once done that way, I found that it just makes people run farther in the other direction. I live as clise as I can to God that I believe in and don't cast stones at anyone who believes differently. I am quite strong in my own opinions and I try to look at things in different perspectives, not just one. That is how respect is maintained.
I can disagree with you and still respect you. I won't debate whether or not there is a God, I won't debate scripture. However, if I feel that things are starting to twist toward a different topic, I know when to stop. So, I stop here.
I hope everyone has a good day/night and hope to talk to yas again sometime.
s and es to all!

bhsmte · Dec 6, 2014

angelkiss said:
So, you choose to believe in only things of evidence.

I am ending on this note....

I respect people from all walks of life and normally don't and won't debate anything. Somehow I chose to put myself in the middle of this topic as well as, find others' opinions quite interesting. I do not try and change people's minds about anything, I say what I have to say and people either take it in stride or they don't. As a Christian with my own beliefs, I refuse to beat someone over the head with scripture and I do not force my beliefs on no one. As someone who was once done that way, I found that it just makes people run farther in the other direction. I am quite strong in my own opinions and I try to look at things in different perspectives, not just one. That is how respect is maintained.
I can disagree with you and still respect you. I won't debate whether or not there is a God, I won't debate scripture. However, if I feel that things are starting to twist toward a different topic, I know when to stop. So, I stop here.
I hope everyone has a good day/night and hope to talk to yas again sometime.
s and es to all!

In reality, people choose to believe in things that they can reconcile in their own mind. If it can not be reconciled, belief will not occur.

Everyone has their own individual gauge of what they can reconcile and what they require to reconcile a belief, which is based on a few things; whether someone is an analytical or intuitive thinker, life's experiences and most importantly, how all variables create a psychological need to believe in anything.

Chany · Dec 6, 2014

angelkiss said:
Oh but the subject is about whether or not beliefs in a God is a choice.........I simply gave my own perspective on that. You have given yours. However, that chair seems irrelevant to the question, no?
I can't convince myself that I am anything other than human, yet I choose to believe in something.
I even step outside the box.....I once didn't believe in.....self. I didn't believe I was capable of finding love and happiness. I didn't believe my life was worth living. Once I changed the perspective and searching within myself, I found something I had chose to ignore for so long. I had to believe that I was capable of conquering my inner battles. I had to believe that I was entitled to love and happiness just as much as anyone else. Which led to choice.....choose to start believing in myself and that my life was worth living or continue down that path of loneliness and give up on everything.
Basically, we are given choices in all aspects. We have to figure out what we really want for ourselves.
That's just my own perspective that really has nothing to do with the actual topic, I was just giving an example of how we control what we want to believe or not believe. I believe those choices set our path in life.

First, I am a hard determinist. I reject free will and do not believe we make "choices", least in the common use of the word. We undergo decisions, but the decisions are just the result of past experiences meeting current circumstances. The outcome was determined long ago by prior causes, outside of our control.

Even assuming free will exists, my point stands. God is actually irrelevant to the larger question: what is the relation between belief and choice? In short, can I ever decide to believe in X (X stands for any potential statement of fact)?

I'm answering "no". The chair is an anology for the absurdity of saying I can choose to believe in something. That is why it is relevant.

As bhsmte points out, what we really are doing is looking at our psychological needs and bias, comparing them to the facts of the world, and the having a resulting outcome of belief. No matter how hard I may try to find belief, if I personally cannot justify a belief to myself, I cannot hold such belief, no matter what it is.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 6, 2014

the demons believe God exists, and shudder in terror and fright because they know their end is near. judgment.

people are stupid and blind to choose to believe that God does not exist, while God says they are still guilty because the evidence of all Creation shows that He does exist.
so they believe a lie instead, a lie perpetrated upon them by both the demons and the demonically or otherwise deceived people who told them some sorry excuse that they came from a puddle of goo instead of being wonderfully and marvelously created in the image of God.

that's their choice and they're sticking with it - they believe it and
no one can change their belief that
they came from a puddle of goo BY ACCIDENT /CHANCE,

unless they are willing to believe the truth.
God help them everyone.....

p.s. depending on which part of christianity or churchianity someone sees , they may or may not see truth. a lot of people have been so hurt by churchiantiy in the name of God that they aren't likely to spend a lot of time looking for the one true God to be set free and healed ,
but, God willing, He is still able to deliver them no matter where on earth they are.

bhsmte · Dec 6, 2014

yeshuaslavejeff said:
the demons believe God exists, and shudder in terror and fright because they know their end is near. judgment.

people are stupid and blind to choose to believe that God does not exist, while God says they are still guilty because the evidence of all Creation shows that He does exist.
so they believe a lie instead, a lie perpetrated upon them by both the demons and the demonically or otherwise deceived people who told them some sorry excuse that they came from a puddle of goo instead of being wonderfully and marvelously created in the image of God.

that's their choice and they're sticking with it - they believe it and
no one can change their belief that
they came from a puddle of goo BY ACCIDENT /CHANCE,

unless they are willing to believe the truth.
God help them everyone.....

p.s. depending on which part of christianity or churchianity someone sees , they may or may not see truth. a lot of people have been so hurt by churchiantiy in the name of God that they aren't likely to spend a lot of time looking for the one true God to be set free and healed ,
but, God willing, He is still able to deliver them no matter where on earth they are.

What demons?

Show them to us.

True Scotsman · Dec 6, 2014

talquin said:
Is belief that a god exists a choice?

Well I could not choose to believe in a god because I know that there are none. If someone were to show me some objective evidence that proved there was one then my belief would follow automatically. I guess the choice comes when one decides to commit to reason as ones only guide to knowledge or not.

Eudaimonist · Dec 6, 2014

angelkiss said:
So, you choose to believe in only things of evidence.

In case I wasn't clear, I had said that it's not a choice for me.

Perhaps I had made a choice long ago to be honest with myself. That is why I care about evidence. Without having justifiable reasons to think that reality really is a certain way, then reality to me will just be a reflection of my desires and preferences. It would be a kind of self-imposed hallucination.

At this point, there is no going back. If I were to try, I would know that I was engaging in self-deception.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Deidre32 · Dec 6, 2014

I was indoctrinated into the faith, as a kid. Not really much choice, there. But, at the end of the day, any person can decide to believe or not believe in a deity, or follow a religion. Even in countries where you are ''forced'' to follow a certain religion, no one can police your thoughts. You will always be in charge of your own thoughts.

Is belief that a god exists a choice?

Is belief that a god exists a choice?

Yes

No

For some yes, for others no

Other (please explain)

Uncertain Absurdist

Fading curmudgeon

Veteran

NannaNae

Guest

Veteran

fallible

Veteran

Fading curmudgeon

Newbie

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!

I believe in life before death!

Wanderer

Veteran

Newbie

Uncertain Absurdist

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Newbie

Objectivist

I believe in life before death!

Follow Thy Heart

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