Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 18, 2016

mark kennedy said:
You know people could have just remembered, like I said oral tradition is better then written records and the ancients were smarter then us.

Yes, absolutely YES!
Adam and Havah spoke with Yahweh, walked with Him in the garden, and learned from Him directly.
They talked with their sons including Cain and Abel....
and other descendants, for many decades or centuries even...
and yes,
their bodies and brains were is no much better condition than anyone today !
(they were as far smarter than us than adults today are smarter than 6 year olds, or close (maybe MORE!) )

SkyWriting · Aug 19, 2016

mark kennedy said:
That's simply not true, the translations all show the same timeline based on the genealogies. What varies are the qualified revisions of the text based on very specific inferences. What you will get, no matter how you count the years represented, is between six and eight thousand years.

1.Most people don't add up and count the generations.
2.Most people don't read the genealogies.
3.No one in the new testament refers to the age of the earth.
4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.
5. All the important tenets of Christianity are mentioned by Jesus
and there are multiple points of view to cover all the major aspects
of the faith.
6. If anything in the scriptures had foundational value, "between six and eight thousand years"
would not be one of those things.

The Young earth concept fails all these tests. It is sloppy reading.
All YEC's are afraid to address these issues, 1-6.
It's not that "I win" the argument. Nobody even attempts
to dispute these points.

SkyWriting · Aug 19, 2016

mark kennedy said:
You guys seem to be under the impression that all Bible believing Christians are incompetent to study their on Scriptures. Thats a gross misconception.

Most Christians do not have a Bible. The Bible is not God. Just ask the Bible.

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

SkyWriting · Aug 19, 2016

mark kennedy said:
That's simply not true, the translations all show the same timeline based on the genealogies. What varies are the qualified revisions of the text based on very specific inferences. What you will get, no matter how you count the years represented, is between six and eight thousand years.

Nobody doubts your ability to create something out of nothing with a calculator.
The issue is if this is what Jesus teaches, or if this is what the disciples taught.

SkyWriting · Aug 19, 2016

Xalith said:
Anybody who has done the research who knows Hebrew, and who has concluded that it was written in Literal text is naturally going to believe in YEC.

God did the research:

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

rjs330 · Aug 19, 2016

Here's an interesting thought. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void.

How long was it this way before God began to create the planet with the six day creative process? Could it have remained that way for a very,long time thus making the earth older before man and animals were created on it?

Just a thought for discussion.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

mark kennedy · Aug 19, 2016

SkyWriting said:
1.Most people don't add up and count the generations.

The Old Testament has an unbroken chain of relative dates.

2.Most people don't read the genealogies.

The Old Testament is a written oral tradition, these lists were originally memorized every generation.

3.No one in the new testament refers to the age of the earth.

Which is anecdotal nonsense.

4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.

If there was something compelling you would have quoted it.

5. All the important tenets of Christianity are mentioned by Jesus
and there are multiple points of view to cover all the major aspects
of the faith.

I noticed you didn't mention any of them.

6. If anything in the scriptures had foundational value, "between six and eight thousand years"
would not be one of those things.

The times are there for a reason and dismissing the time line dismisses the historicity.

The Young earth concept fails all these tests. It is sloppy reading.

It's better then rambling off the cuff rationalizations.

All YEC's are afraid to address these issues, 1-6.

No just got better things to do.

It's not that "I win" the argument. Nobody even attempts
to dispute these points.

Your not making any points, your begging the question of proof on your hands and knees

mark kennedy · Aug 19, 2016

rjs330 said:
Here's an interesting thought. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void.

How long was it this way before God began to create the planet with the six day creative process? Could it have remained that way for a very,long time thus making the earth older before man and animals were created on it?

I've always thought that, the whole thing with the age of the earth and the cosmos has always been a diversion. All it says is that God created the heavens and the earth, 'in the beginning'. Now from Adam onward there is a long list of relative dates, but the original creation is another matter entirely.

SkyWriting · Aug 19, 2016

mark kennedy said:
Which is anecdotal nonsense.

Some people have a higher opinion of the New Testament teachings.
4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.
Not one "young".

-If there was something compelling you would have quoted it.

Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
... with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
//biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 16k

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...
... The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed-- but he marches
on forever. ... The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. ...
//biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 17k

Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...
... Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these ...
//biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 18k

Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...
... You are the radiant one. You are more majestic than the ancient mountains. .... ...
//biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 15k

Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and ...
... Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such
as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come. ...
//biblehub.com/joel/2-2.htm - 18k

Ezekiel 36:11 I will increase the number of people and animals ...
... O mountains of Israel, I will bring people to live on you once again ... I will cause
you to be inhabited as in ancient times, and will do more good for you than at ...

5. All the important tenets of Christianity are mentioned by Jesus
and there are multiple points of view to cover all the major aspects
of the faith.
-I noticed you didn't mention any of them.

Note that each tenant below is backed up with 2-40 references.
YEC is directly unsupported by anything in scripture. But if
you enjoy finding hidden truths by adding up numbers, you'll
love this truth you've been ignoring: The Alpha~Numeric Mystery of Chai.

The Basic Tenets of Christianity
Table of Contents
1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father

2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works

3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ

5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave

6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity

8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God

9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation

10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell

12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth

dad · Aug 20, 2016

SkyWriting said:
Some people have a higher opinion of the New Testament teachings.
4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.
Not one "young".

-If there was something compelling you would have quoted it.

Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
... with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
//biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 16k

I see the Hebrew for ancient means this..

east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
1. front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
2. ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
3. anciently, of old (adverb)
4. beginning
5. east adv
eastward, to or toward the East

-----
So, if a range or mountain was here from the beginning, or was east, I guess it would be ancient. Nothing to do with millions of imaginary years old of course.

SkyWriting · Aug 20, 2016

dad said:
I see the Hebrew for ancient means this..

east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime

front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East

ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time

anciently, of old (adverb)

beginning

east adv

eastward, to or toward the East--

So, if a range or mountain was here from the beginning, or was east, I guess it would be ancient. Nothing to do with millions of imaginary years old of course.

So if my case is weak regarding use of the word ancient,
and we ignore the rest of the bible:

everlasting hills
and the age-old hills
The age-old hills collapse
the bounty of the age-old hills.

do you have anything to counter with outside of the teachings of a religious cult?

Black boyfriends matter!

Note that Bible based doctrine below has some research to it.
It's not like you to ignore the rest of the contents of a post
unless you are beflumwiched.

The Basic Tenets of Christianity
Table of Contents
1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God
4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ
7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
11 – The Doctrine of Hell
12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth

dad · Aug 21, 2016

SkyWriting said:
So if my case is weak regarding use of the word ancient,
and we ignore the rest of the bible:

everlasting hills

No. Everlasting does not just mean ancient.

and the age-old hills

Hey Patriarchs reached old age too. No millions of years involved.

The age-old hills collapse

When the mountains get flattened in the end, even the older hills would be involved. Nothing to do with wrongly attained imaginary time invoked by the wise men of so called science.

do you have anything to counter with outside of the teachings of a religious cult?

??? If we don't believe in fairy tales invented millions of years we are a cult??

Black boyfriends matter!

More than white ones?

Note that Bible based doctrine below has some research to it.

The basic tenets of faith in Christ are alright. I was commenting on a possible allusion to the creation of Jesus being millions of years old.

dad · Aug 21, 2016

rjs330 said:
Here's an interesting thought. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void.

How long was it this way before God began to create the planet with the six day creative process? Could it have remained that way for a very,long time thus making the earth older before man and animals were created on it?

Just a thought for discussion.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Since we know the world was made for man, and man was made the fifth day, and the other days of creation were clearly denoted as real days with mornings and evenings, you can't insert imaginary time on a whim for no reason.

rjs330 · Aug 21, 2016

SkyWriting said:
Some people have a higher opinion of the New Testament teachings.
4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.
Not one "young".

-If there was something compelling you would have quoted it.

Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
... with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
//biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 16k

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...
... The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed-- but he marches
on forever. ... The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. ...
//biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 17k

Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...
... Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these ...
//biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 18k

Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...
... You are the radiant one. You are more majestic than the ancient mountains. .... ...
//biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 15k

Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and ...
... Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such
as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come. ...
//biblehub.com/joel/2-2.htm - 18k

Ezekiel 36:11 I will increase the number of people and animals ...
... O mountains of Israel, I will bring people to live on you once again ... I will cause
you to be inhabited as in ancient times, and will do more good for you than at ...

5. All the important tenets of Christianity are mentioned by Jesus
and there are multiple points of view to cover all the major aspects
of the faith.
-I noticed you didn't mention any of them.

Note that each tenant below is backed up with 2-40 references.
YEC is directly unsupported by anything in scripture. But if
you enjoy finding hidden truths by adding up numbers, you'll
love this truth you've been ignoring: The Alpha~Numeric Mystery of Chai.

The Basic Tenets of Christianity
Table of Contents
1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father

2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works

3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ

5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave

6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity

8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God

9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation

10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell

12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth

The words used to prescribe age old in relation to hills is the Hebrew word olam or owlam. The word is a reference to always and everlasting. It's a word used to refer to something that existed from the beginning and lasts perpetually. It is not a word that means ancient as in,really old or having existed,for millions of billions of years. It refers primarily to the eternality of the hills or mountains in this context.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

SkyWriting · Aug 21, 2016

rjs330 said:
The words used to prescribe age old in relation to hills is the Hebrew word olam or owlam. The word is a reference to always and everlasting. It's a word used to refer to something that existed from the beginning and lasts perpetually. It is not a word that means ancient as in,really old or having existed,for millions of billions of years. It refers primarily to the eternality of the hills or mountains in this context.

So you can't find anything that supports a young earth either?
How about you count up the years yourself. What number do you get
and do you expect illiterate listeners to count the years and become converts?
Nothing like these items with multiple references by many authors?

The Basic Tenets of Christianity
Table of Contents
1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell
12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth

SkyWriting · Aug 21, 2016

dad said:
No. Everlasting does not just mean ancient.

That's fine. I know both words.
What value is there if a person speaks about
evolution with no Biblical support? How can
YEC's claim to be any different?

The Basic Tenets of Christianity
Table of Contents
1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell
12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth

SkyWriting · Aug 21, 2016

dad said:
??? If we don't believe in fairy tales invented millions of years we are a cult??

If you speak outside of scripture and trust in outside sources
ignore plain scripture, and invent young to replace ancient or everlasting.
Then you are without excuse.

You seem unable to apply scripture to reality.

19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

How does this follow your genealogy sermon?

dad · Aug 21, 2016

SkyWriting said:
That's fine. I know both words.
What value is there if a person speaks about
evolution with no Biblical support? How can
YEC's claim to be any different?

The Basic Tenets of Christianity
Table of Contents
1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell
12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth

What value is there in inventing millions of years to try and determine how one translates a word in the bible to try and compromise with manscience?

dad · Aug 21, 2016

SkyWriting said:
If you speak outside of scripture and trust in outside sources
ignore plain scripture, and invent young to replace ancient or everlasting.
Then you are without excuse.

If you see someone do that cite an example, no idea what you are trying to say.

You seem unable to apply scripture to reality.

Reality is not determined by belief based so called science and how it wants to overrule God.

19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

God's invisible qualities do not include electromagnetic force and gravity, and the strong nuclear force and such, do they? One quality He has is telling the truth, such as how He formed man.

How does this follow your genealogy sermon?

You seem to be confusing posters or something, I did not make any such sermon.

SkyWriting · Aug 22, 2016

dad said:
God's invisible qualities do not include electromagnetic force and gravity, and the strong nuclear force and such, do they? One quality He has is telling the truth, such as how He formed man.

You get that from looking at the sky?

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20 For ever since the creation of the world...
God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power
and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood from His workmanship,
so that men are without excuse.

Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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