Is belief in God wishful thinking?

darknova · Mar 22, 2011

Hi,

Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

aiki · Mar 22, 2011

Hi,

Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

I'm not sure the question you're asking can be answered "right" or "wrong."

The reasons I have for belief in God may not seem very convincing to you, but is this because the reasons "lack to some extent"? I certainly don't think so, and I'm not any less able to judge their merit than you, I'm sure. Do I have more hope than you? Maybe. But hope didn't really come into it for me at the front end of the process that secured my belief in God.

Selah.

DataPacRat · Mar 22, 2011

darknova said:
Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Occam's razor suggests that unless you have a good reason for believing something exists, you shouldn't.

You might find this list of claimed reasons for the existence of God which don't pass logical muster worth perusing, and comparing to whatever evidence/reason for His existence anybody proposes to you.

elman · Mar 22, 2011

darknova said:
Hi,

Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

If you assume God is loving and created you to love others, I think you will see things in your life that justify this assumption, make it a reasonable possition, but not proven to the point that faith becomes unnecessary. Remember, believing there is no Creator, and believing we will not survive physical death and that there is ultimatly no meaning to our existence is also an assumption. There is absolutly no evidence to prove it.

elman · Mar 22, 2011

DataPacRat said:
Occam's razor suggests that unless you have a good reason for believing something exists, you shouldn't.

You might find this list of claimed reasons for the existence of God which don't pass logical muster worth perusing, and comparing to whatever evidence/reason for His existence anybody proposes to you.

It is subjective what one decides is not good reason to believe or what is good reason to believe.

grasping the after wind · Mar 22, 2011

Belief in God can be based on numerous things. Personal experience of the presence of God is one. The eyewitness testimony of several people who have claimed to see God or to have spoken with Him is another as is the use of reason to build an argument for the existence of God. I haven't encountered anyone who claims to believe in God because they want to have objective morality it usually works in the opposite direction they think morality is objective because they believe in God.Same with eternal life or meaning to their life they hope for eternal life because they believe in God etc. One could always hope for a medical breakthrough that would lead to eternal life or work on finding that breakthrough to give oneself meaning so God is not a necessity for those things and therefore not the likely first choice if those are the things you desire. Since any morality that emanates from the existence of God would be God's subjective morality there's no hope for an objective morality for one who is searching for an excuse for one by hoping that God exists and telling others that that hope is actually a belief.

DataPacRat · Mar 22, 2011

elman said:
It is subjective what one decides is not good reason to believe or what is good reason to believe.

The decision may be subjective; whether a reason is a good reason or not is pretty objective.

elman · Mar 22, 2011

DataPacRat said:
The decision may be subjective; whether a reason is a good reason or not is pretty objective.

I don't think so. I found the number of coincidences occuring were not reasonable to assume coincidence. I suspect you might think that not a good reason. I think it was and is.

elman · Mar 22, 2011

.

One could always hope for a medical breakthrough that would lead to eternal life or work on finding that breakthrough to give oneself meaning so God is not a necessity for those things and therefore not the likely first choice if those are the things you desire.

This is more wishful thinking than hoping for the existence of a loving Creator.

DataPacRat · Mar 22, 2011

elman said:
I don't think so. I found the number of coincidences occuring were not reasonable to assume coincidence. I suspect you might think that not a good reason. I think it was and is.

There's about six billion people alive; one-in-a-million coincidences will have happened to about 6,000 of them.

Human minds are wonderful pattern-matching machines, which allows us to accomplish so much; but the downside is that, since we're so tuned to noticing patterns, we also have a tendency to notice "patterns" that are really not patterns at all. This is one reasonable place to start learning about this; the book "Mind Hacks" is another.

elman · Mar 22, 2011

DataPacRat said:
There's about six billion people alive; one-in-a-million coincidences will have happened to about 6,000 of them.

Human minds are wonderful pattern-matching machines, which allows us to accomplish so much; but the downside is that, since we're so tuned to noticing patterns, we also have a tendency to notice "patterns" that are really not patterns at all. This is one reasonable place to start learning about this; the book "Mind Hacks" is another.

You cannot judge what I am talking about until you know and even then--you need to have experienced it. You have to live your own experiences. Mine will not work for you and you have no business judging me on my interpetation of mine.

DataPacRat · Mar 22, 2011

elman said:
You cannot judge what I am talking about until you know and even then--you need to have experienced it.

So, is it your contention that the only way to evaluate whether someone's beliefs are in accordance with the actual truth is... to experience those beliefs, presumably by believing them?

You have to live your own experiences. Mine will not work for you and you have no business judging me on my interpetation of mine.

If your experiences have some connection to objective reality, then there are certain techniques which have a very good correlation to tell whether those experiences actually /correspond/ to objective reality. If your experiences /don't/ have some connection to objective reality... then you are, of course, free to enjoy your subjective universe all you like, and I am free to enjoy my subjective universe, including by subjectively claiming that my subjective experiences are more objective than your subjective experiences.

darknova · Mar 22, 2011

aiki said:
I'm not sure the question you're asking can be answered "right" or "wrong."

The reasons I have for belief in God may not seem very convincing to you, but is this because the reasons "lack to some extent"? I certainly don't think so, and I'm not any less able to judge their merit than you, I'm sure. Do I have more hope than you? Maybe. But hope didn't really come into it for me at the front end of the process that secured my belief in God.

Selah.

Why do you believe then? I don't mind if you don't think I would find them convincing. I am open to being convinced.

darknova · Mar 22, 2011

elman said:
If you assume God is loving and created you to love others, I think you will see things in your life that justify this assumption, make it a reasonable possition, but not proven to the point that faith becomes unnecessary.

When I used to believe I was certain there was a loving God made known to me through my life. But I doubt my experiences and reasonings back then. Do you think there probability is in favour of God then? I don't need certainty because few things are certain, but probability of God existing being above 60% would be nice.

Remember, believing there is no Creator, and believing we will not survive physical death and that there is ultimatly no meaning to our existence is also an assumption. There is absolutly no evidence to prove it.

I agree, but it is easy to assume nothing than assume something.

darknova · Mar 22, 2011

grasping the after wind said:
Belief in God can be based on numerous things. Personal experience of the presence of God is one.

I once thought I had experienced this, but it could be just my psychology making up these experiences couldn't it?

The eyewitness testimony of several people who have claimed to see God or to have spoken with Him is another as is the use of reason to build an argument for the existence of God.

Do you mean responses to prayer here or things like the resurrection? I used to think reasoned arguments like the Kalam cosmological argument and fine-tuning were good arguments. The problem is that reasoned arguments like this rely on perfect reasoning abilities.

I haven't encountered anyone who claims to believe in God because they want to have objective morality it usually works in the opposite direction they think morality is objective because they believe in God.Same with eternal life or meaning to their life they hope for eternal life because they believe in God etc.

I wouldn't say they consciously believe for these reasons.

One could always hope for a medical breakthrough that would lead to eternal life or work on finding that breakthrough to give oneself meaning so God is not a necessity for those things and therefore not the likely first choice if those are the things you desire.

But a future medical breakthrough doesn't assure you of eternal life, whereas God does.

Since any morality that emanates from the existence of God would be God's subjective morality there's no hope for an objective morality for one who is searching for an excuse for one by hoping that God exists and telling others that that hope is actually a belief.

If there were a God I doubt that morality is moral because God wills it, rather that God wills it because it is moral.

Justsomedude · Mar 22, 2011

darknova said:
Hi,

Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

I think it depends on how you define G-d.

IMO, the basis of all monotheism is that the universe operates by cause and effect and that the laws of nature are consistent.

Gravity is, in the most literal sense, the hand of G-d manifested. The question is whether or not anything is attached to that hand.

To put it another way, the disagreement between atheists and theists is not so much whether G-d exists but the nature of G-d.

So, you might ask, why worship gravity or the forces of nature? They can not be manipulated by our actions. The answer is that religion isn't to manipulate G-d, it's to manipulate us.

LWB · Mar 22, 2011

It might seem like wishful thinking from the atheist perspective. Like we are inventing an imaginary friend to comfort ourselves with.

But when you've undergone the psychological transformation that allows you to see life in a new way. When you realise the connection between everything and see through the illusion of duality, there is no wishing necessary.

Bear.Fr00t · Mar 22, 2011

darknova said:
Hi,

Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

Actually, God does reveal himself in supernatural ways. It's hard to prove these occurrences though because unbelievers can always attribute what happens to something other than God. The most obvious expression of the existence of God is when you have a new Christian completely turn his life around and change everything about the way he thinks and acts. This is the power of God manifesting in that person but unbelievers will always be skeptical and attribute the change to something other than God.

drich0150 · Mar 22, 2011

darknova said:
Hi,
Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

No, we are provided all the "evidence" our hearts require if we simply ask seek and knock for it.

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

wrong.

andreha · Mar 23, 2011

darknova said:
Hi,

Is God a hope rather than based on evidence or reason?

Many of the reasons to believe in God all seem to lack to some extent. So is the real reason to believe in God out of hope. Hope that morality is objective, hope that there is meaning in our lives, hope that we will survive death and wotn be forgotten, hope that there is more to life this?

It seems as if God is something you just have to assume is real for personal reasons rather than because there is strong evidence either way.

Am I right or wrong?

God is very real - you will know that for sure by the time that you die one day. Personally, I can testify to a lifetime of answered prayers, as well as a very real divine protection He blesses me with. I would have died many times if He didn't intervene. I remember once, when I would have died in a pile-up on the freeway if He didn't take control of my body and made me stop before I even saw the stationary cars. Christianity is the real deal my friend. PM me if you'd like to chat about it.

Is belief in God wishful thinking?

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