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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Is Belief a Moral Construct?
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<blockquote data-quote="zippy2006" data-source="post: 75645350" data-attributes="member: 342410"><p>I should say that it would have been clearer in my previous post to use the term "voluntary belief" rather than "voluntary choice." I will try to make the change in this post.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, that is what we are talking about: Is belief a choice? My contention has been that certain beliefs are clearly choices because we hold people responsible for beliefs, and praise or blame them, or reward or punish them, based on their beliefs. For example, the student who believes 12x12=144 is praised whereas the student who believes that 12x12=156 is blamed.</p><p></p><p>Now, do you see the difference between these two scenarios?</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">A student's test is marked down because they believe that 12x12=156.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The human race is destroyed by an asteroid because a scientist makes a mistaken calculation.</li> </ol><p>Scenario 1 has to do with praise and blame; scenario 2 does not. In scenario 1 the student is held responsible and punished for their belief, and the teacher punishes them because the student <em>chose</em> the belief. If the student did not choose the belief then it would not be fair to punish them. In scenario 2 there is no mention of punishment or reward. There is only a natural consequence of a miscalculation. Scenario 2 therefore has nothing to do with the topic at hand.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Remember that we are talking about choice. Here are the two options:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">A. If I get the math problem wrong by mistake, was this a choice?</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">B. If I get the math problem wrong intentionally, was this a choice?</p><p></p><p>The answer is that in both situations the belief is chosen. We would not say that someone arrives at the wrong answer on purpose, as if they are attempting to be wrong, <em>but nevertheless the student who believes that the answer is 156 freely chooses their belief and is therefore held responsible for their belief.</em> The student who arrives at the answer of 156 chooses their belief no less than the student who arrives at the answer of 144. It is false to state that only the second student is exercising choice/volition in mathematics.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, the question we are currently considering is whether beliefs are chosen. That question is essential to the OP, as noted in post #5.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree, and therefore you are blaming a student for a belief. For example, we might say that <em>it is their fault</em> that they arrived at the mistaken belief because they did not study for the test.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a separate question. What you are essentially saying here is, "Okay fine, beliefs can be chosen, but isn't eternal damnation an excessive punishment for unbelief?"</p><p></p><p>What I will do, in logical fashion, is to assess premise (5). If premise (5) is false then argument (4-6) fails and conclusion (6) cannot be drawn. If premise (5) is true then argument (4-6) is sound and conclusion (6) is true. Once we have assessed premise (5) we can perhaps look at a different argument, such as this argument about excessive punishment.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, according to Christianity God does do this. There is a famous Christian poem by Francis Thompson called, "The Hound of Heaven," which describes this very thing.</p><p></p><p>But again, this is another additional argument. You are saying, "Okay fine, we do choose our beliefs, but shouldn't the Teacher take special effort to show us where we went wrong and guide us to the correct belief?"</p><p></p><p>Again, one argument at a time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="zippy2006, post: 75645350, member: 342410"] I should say that it would have been clearer in my previous post to use the term "voluntary belief" rather than "voluntary choice." I will try to make the change in this post. Yes, that is what we are talking about: Is belief a choice? My contention has been that certain beliefs are clearly choices because we hold people responsible for beliefs, and praise or blame them, or reward or punish them, based on their beliefs. For example, the student who believes 12x12=144 is praised whereas the student who believes that 12x12=156 is blamed. Now, do you see the difference between these two scenarios? [LIST=1] [*]A student's test is marked down because they believe that 12x12=156. [*]The human race is destroyed by an asteroid because a scientist makes a mistaken calculation. [/LIST] Scenario 1 has to do with praise and blame; scenario 2 does not. In scenario 1 the student is held responsible and punished for their belief, and the teacher punishes them because the student [I]chose[/I] the belief. If the student did not choose the belief then it would not be fair to punish them. In scenario 2 there is no mention of punishment or reward. There is only a natural consequence of a miscalculation. Scenario 2 therefore has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Remember that we are talking about choice. Here are the two options: [INDENT]A. If I get the math problem wrong by mistake, was this a choice? B. If I get the math problem wrong intentionally, was this a choice?[/INDENT] The answer is that in both situations the belief is chosen. We would not say that someone arrives at the wrong answer on purpose, as if they are attempting to be wrong, [I]but nevertheless the student who believes that the answer is 156 freely chooses their belief and is therefore held responsible for their belief.[/I] The student who arrives at the answer of 156 chooses their belief no less than the student who arrives at the answer of 144. It is false to state that only the second student is exercising choice/volition in mathematics. Again, the question we are currently considering is whether beliefs are chosen. That question is essential to the OP, as noted in post #5. I agree, and therefore you are blaming a student for a belief. For example, we might say that [I]it is their fault[/I] that they arrived at the mistaken belief because they did not study for the test. This is a separate question. What you are essentially saying here is, "Okay fine, beliefs can be chosen, but isn't eternal damnation an excessive punishment for unbelief?" What I will do, in logical fashion, is to assess premise (5). If premise (5) is false then argument (4-6) fails and conclusion (6) cannot be drawn. If premise (5) is true then argument (4-6) is sound and conclusion (6) is true. Once we have assessed premise (5) we can perhaps look at a different argument, such as this argument about excessive punishment. Yes, according to Christianity God does do this. There is a famous Christian poem by Francis Thompson called, "The Hound of Heaven," which describes this very thing. But again, this is another additional argument. You are saying, "Okay fine, we do choose our beliefs, but shouldn't the Teacher take special effort to show us where we went wrong and guide us to the correct belief?" Again, one argument at a time. [/QUOTE]
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