Is being Wiccan moral?

Volos · Jul 28, 2003

I have never heard the origins pinned down to a single book source.

Usually the sources of inspiration for Gerald Gardner (the man who wrote it all down) includes:

The Witch Cult in Western Europe by Margaret Murray (this was a non-fiction study of witch trails made my Murray. The conclusions she came to have since been proven inaccurate.)

The White Goddess by Robert Graves This was a book of fiction though it does not read like one.

The Golden Bough by James Fraszier. This massive work (ten volumes) is a collection of folk beliefs from across Europe.

Volos · Jul 28, 2003

Origianlly posted by Ryder:
Oh lets see, the rede contains detailed binding spells designed to (for example) cause someone to fall in love with you and/or find you sexualy attractive. On face value, is it harmful? Yes, assuming it worked ( *chuckles* ) it would be a deliberate violation of the other persons free will. So I guess according to most wiccans, violating someones free will is ok as long as physical injury does not result. In my opinion that is a patheticly short sighted view of morality.

Wiccans won't call it a curse. It's a love spell, doesn't that sound lovely? But it is designed to circumvent anothers free will. And most happy-go-nice wiccans will try these binding spells and also declare that they abhore curses.

The Wiccan Rede is a basic statement of contextual ethics that is generally followed by Neo_Pagans.

The first recorded mention of the Wiccan Rede in the eight-word form popular today, at least that I have been able to discover thus far, was in a speech by Doreen Valiente on October 3, 1964.

An' it harm none, do what ye will

An being an archaic form of if.

There are a few important things to note about the rede:
It is not a law or a commandment the word rede literally means a piece of good advice.
Harm is generally interpreted to mean harm of any kind, not just physical harm but emotional harm, environmental harm, social harm etc.
It is important to note that this harm includes harm inflected upon the self.
It is do as you will not do as you WHIM.

Ultimately the rede is about examining ones actions, their outcomes and your motivations and basing ethical decisions based on that.

Love spells would directly contradict the ethics of Wicca because such a thing would remove the free will of another, it would cause serious emotional harm and it would harm the caster in that the reasons for working such as spell are entirely self serving.

Curses of any sort would directly contradict the ethics of Wicca. The single purpose of a curse is to inflict some form of harm on another.

Origianlly posted by Ryder:
Oh, another thought. Those spells that call for the blood of animals, like a white dove (for love bindings if I remember correctly) how do you get that without harming a living creature? It's in the rede and most spell libraries. If your answer is find a dead one, then I gotta ask everyone. How many dead white doves have you come across in your life? Any? Oh, and they also have to be very recently dead too, else the blood is gonna be akin to dry cake mix with bateria and mold throughout.

I dont know what you are reading but I am positive it has NOTHING to do with Wicca. I have read extensively books on Wicca and NeoPaganism in general and have NEVER run across any magical work calling for the sacrifice of an animal. About half the Wiccans I know are vegetarian because they feel it is immoral to kill an animal for food.

Arikay · Jul 28, 2003

To add to that, from what I understand, the knives or daggers that are used in some ceremonies, are not ment to cut anything but Air. To do so would be to tarnish the knifes energy and ability and so on.

ZiSunka · Jul 29, 2003

Volos said:
I have never heard the origins pinned down to a single book source.

Usually the sources of inspiration for Gerald Gardner (the man who wrote it all down) includes:

The Witch Cult in Western Europe by Margaret Murray (this was a non-fiction study of witch trails made my Murray. The conclusions she came to have since been proven inaccurate.)

The White Goddess by Robert Graves This was a book of fiction though it does not read like one.

The Golden Bough by James Fraszier. This massive work (ten volumes) is a collection of folk beliefs from across Europe.

Point is, wicca is at most 70 years old, not thousands of years old like wiccans like to claim.

TrinityHerself · Jul 29, 2003

Yes, it's cool. No probs here. I'll give you a seat next to me in the circle.

Arikay · Jul 29, 2003

Ive never heard wiccans claim that wicca itself was thousands of years old.

Ive heard them claim that certain things they believe in are thousands of years old But not their specific religion.

lambslove said:
Point is, wicca is at most 70 years old, not thousands of years old like wiccans like to claim.

ZiSunka · Jul 29, 2003

Arikay said:
Ive never heard wiccans claim that wicca itself was thousands of years old.

Ive heard them claim that certain things they believe in are thousands of years old But not their specific religion.

My aunts, who are wiccan, and many wiccans here at CF, claim that wicca is older than Christianity, and even that wicca predates the Old Testament. They claim it is "The Oldest Religion," practiced comtinually for thousands of years, and that many millions of wiccans were murdered in witch hunts from 500 AD to 1900 AD. Depending on who you talk to, 1 million to 40 million wiccans were killed in witch hunts throughout Europe sponsored by the catholic church, according to wiccans. Yet there is no evidence that wicca existed before 1930.

Witch hunts DID happen, and a lot of Christians were killed among the "witches," but the numbers weren't in the millions. Historical records, contemporary journals and letters cannot account for more than 400 actual deaths. Most "witches" confessed or were convicted, then pardoned.

Wiccans are very confusing people to talk to when it comes to their history.

Arikay · Jul 29, 2003

Ah, ic. I think its more of a confusion between "wicca" and the spirit of wicca.

Witchcraft like stuff has been practiced for a long time, and if they take some stuff from people like the druids, then Yes, it has been practiced since before the old testament.

However, I would call that the "spirit of wicca" (things like witchcraft, goddess's etc) but Wicca the religion that people practice today hasnt been around for too long.

I think the confusion often comes from Witch and Wiccan being used interchangably when its not completly, as "witches" (and similiar pagan people) have been around for a long time but "wiccans" havent.

If any of that makes any sense.

ZiSunka · Jul 29, 2003

Thanks! That makes sense!

Teh Wiccan · Jul 29, 2003

I agree, saying the roots of Wicca are older is more accurate.

ZiSunka · Jul 29, 2003

Great! Thanks for being candid with us. I like you guys!

Ryder · Jul 29, 2003

Gotta hand it to them, they debate politely! (refreshing)

SquareC · Jul 29, 2003

lambslove said:
Great! Thanks for being candid with us. I like you guys!

Thanks! I like you too!

Ryder said:
Gotta hand it to them, they debate politely! (refreshing)

Thank you as well! I personally consider courtesy to be of supreme importance (although it is no longer "common" as the phrase goes). One should always respect the opinions of another, especially when disagreeing or debating!

Volos · Jul 29, 2003

Originally posted by lambslove:
Witch hunts DID happen, and a lot of Christians were killed among the "witches," but the numbers weren't in the millions. Historical records, contemporary journals and letters cannot account for more than 400 actual deaths. Most "witches" confessed or were convicted, then pardoned.

Nine million lives were claimed by the Burning Times was a number originated with Matilda Gage in the 19th century and has been unfortunately repeated time and time again in an example of how even good people can repeat stupid things. Historians estimate the number of people killed by the inquisition at between 40,000 and 100,000, and this is taking into account that not all records have survived or were even taken in the first place.

Volos · Jul 29, 2003

Great! Thanks for being candid with us. I like you guys!

Gotta hand it to them, they debate politely! (refreshing)

Pagans in general tend to be friendly and occasionally polite people.

Since there is a moderator hanging around here:

I can post links to a couple very good websites on Wicca, its beliefs and its history here. For those who would like to learn more. (Unless that would violate the rule on promoting other religions)

ACougar · Jul 29, 2003

ACougar steps up onto his handy-dandy soapbox and clears his throat:

I consider witchcraft to be magic not sanctioned by the culture in which it is practiced. A tribal shaman is not a witch because his majick and work are authorized by the community, in a Chrisitan society pretty much any form of majick, even that based on a Christian worldview is witchcraft. Because most Wiccans practice some magic, they are also technicly practicing witchcraft. On the other hand if Wiccans were ever completely accepted by society they would no longer really be witches.

Most of the old classic magick spells that you see floating around are folk magick; while many wiccans study these types of spells, it's more for the ideas and theory behind them than any interest in the actual practice.

Wicca is based on a hodgepodge of ideas and influences, while some of it's mysteries, ideals, and principles are as old as man, others are barely half a century old. It is ancient and modern at the same time.

The religion is growing much faster than it's capacity to screen and train people who are called to it. Some will stay, many will move on. There is no well defined path to follow, instead adherants must look inside themselves, make contanct with thier inner divinity and follow thier own path.

As for the numbers killed during the witch hunts, I believe the number to be around 400,000 most of whom were social outcast for reasons other than religion. Heratics, midwives, mentaly ill, disliked or just not trusted for whatever reason, it's unlikely that more than a small percentage actually practiced some form of folk magick or pre-CHristian religion. Whatever the reason they were still casualties of fear and greed.

ACougar grins and steps down

lambslove said:
My aunts, who are wiccan, and many wiccans here at CF, claim that wicca is older than Christianity, and even that wicca predates the Old Testament. They claim it is "The Oldest Religion," practiced comtinually for thousands of years, and that many millions of wiccans were murdered in witch hunts from 500 AD to 1900 AD. Depending on who you talk to, 1 million to 40 million wiccans were killed in witch hunts throughout Europe sponsored by the catholic church, according to wiccans. Yet there is no evidence that wicca existed before 1930.

Witch hunts DID happen, and a lot of Christians were killed among the "witches," but the numbers weren't in the millions. Historical records, contemporary journals and letters cannot account for more than 400 actual deaths. Most "witches" confessed or were convicted, then pardoned.

Wiccans are very confusing people to talk to when it comes to their history.

Ben johnson · Jul 30, 2003

(Unless that would violate the rule on promoting other religions)

That would indeed seem to violate the rule on "promoting other religions"; anyone with such an interest has their own access to internet search engines. I would hope and pray that whoever searches, he or she would search with a challenge, to the CREATOR, that the truth will be made manifest. Being Christian, I am convicted that whoever SEEKS God will FIND Him, when they search with all their heart (Jer29:11-14). So, AS a Christian, I need not worry about someone being "led wrong". Wiccans claim to be "truly seeking after the Truth" --- if this is correct, then if the Christian God IS reality, anyone who truly searches will FIND Him, and be found BY Him...

gehenna · Jul 30, 2003

Wicca is moral. The religion establishes moral guidelines (don't harm others). It's not Biblical and doesn't follow Christian morals, maybe, but it has morals.

ZiSunka · Jul 30, 2003

Volos said:
Nine million lives were claimed by the Burning Times was a number originated with Matilda Gage in the 19th century and has been unfortunately repeated time and time again in an example of how even good people can repeat stupid things. Historians estimate the number of people killed by the inquisition at between 40,000 and 100,000, and this is taking into account that not all records have survived or were even taken in the first place.

I think that if nine million people were killed in the 1800's, it would have been big news. People who go on witch hunts like publicity, and they would have made sure everyone knew about it. And news reporting was already quite good, and world news already spread pretty fast, thanks to inventions like the telegraph and steam ships in the 1800's.

All the histories I can find about the Inquistion (about 50 sources so far, not all catholic), say that during the Inquistion, around 357 people were actually killed as heretics. The rest were tortured and released. The Inquisition WAY predated the 19th century, by the way, and since you didn't seem to know that, no one can take your version of history seriously.

During the Reformation, the catholic church tortured and killed around 300 more, but all of these were protestants of various kinds. Others were tortured and released. The reformation way predated the 19th century as well.

Oh, and the Inquisition wasn't a witch hunt, it was a hunt for Christian heretics, people who wouldn't join the catholic church. It had nothing to do with witches.

The witch hunts took place almost exclusively in England and nothern Europe, with a little bit going on in America, during the late 17th century and early 18th century. By the time of the Salem witches, the movement had died out everywhere but there. That episode only lasted a brief time, and only three people were executed, the rest signed confessions and were restored to the community. Historical evidence shows that the Salem witch incident was induced by pychodelic grain mold that had infected the local food supply. They were all high on LSD, and not in their right minds.

But your response is what I meant when I said that different wiccans claim huge numbers of persecutions and killings, despite evidence to the contrary.

SquareC · Jul 30, 2003

lambslove said:
The Inquisition WAY predated the 19th century, by the way, and since you didn't seem to know that, no one can take your version of history seriously.

During the Reformation, the catholic church tortured and killed around 300 more, but all of these were protestants of various kinds. Others were tortured and released. The reformation way predated the 19th century as well.

He did not say these people were killed during the 19th century, he said the numbers quoted originated during the 19th century, by a woman named Matilda Gage. These numbers were then quoted by others, further distorting the truth. I personally believe from my own research, that the numbers around 400 people killed are understated, and the numbers around 400,000 people and above killed are exaggerated. I think the true numbers are somewhere in the middle ground. But in regards to the Salem episodes, I have seen records from the time confirming the deaths of over 50 people, some strangers and some residents, so the number 3 is a little low I think. I have my doubts on the grain mold theory, but I wasn't there and historical evidence has both supporting and contradicting aspects on that subject. I make no judgements, I doubt we will ever know the actual truth.

Is being Wiccan moral?

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