Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

YAQUBOS · Sep 3, 2008

Here's the way the Bible describes the washing away of Saul's/Paul's sins: "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). Saul's response was: "... And he arose and was baptized (Acts 9:18). So, please explain how/why we are supposed to conclude that Saul's sins were washed away by faith alone.

Because the verse says that the washing happens by CALLING ON THE NAME OF THE LORD. This is faith alone. And this faith alone receives whatever is in baptism. If you don't have this faith, you may take many showers and you remain in your sins.

Saul BELIEVED what he heard about Salvation, He called on the Name of the Lord, THEREFORE he arose and was baptized.

By the way, when it says that he had to call on the Name of the Lord, this doesn't mean that he had to go in the streets shouting to the Lord... You know that this means "having faith in the Lord".

I hear what you are saying, but the type/antitype relationship discussed in 1 Peter 3:20-21 is that eight souls were saved by water, and baptism now saves us. No, baptism doesn't save without Christ. It saves by giving us a clear conscience (by taking our sins away) through the resurrection of Christ (as explained in verse 21), which brings to mind Col. 2:12-13 and Romans 6:3-11 again. Baptism is God's way for us to be united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. That's how baptism saves us.

So baptism doesn't save us in itself. It is the Grace of God received by faith alone that saves us. And as baptism is part of that received Grace, then baptism is necessary in Salvation. But nowhere in the Bible it says that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation. In that case, no human would ever be saved without getting baptized, which is wrong, because all Old Testament believers were saved without getting baptized. It is the GRACE symbolized in the water of baptism that saves, not baptism itself. And Peter said it clearly in his passage: It is not the removal of dirt from the flesh.

As for being in Christ, Galatians 3:27 describes how one gets "into Christ." It occurs in baptism. Therefore, the inference is that before baptism one is outside of Christ. Therefore, one can't be saved by "faith alone" separate and apart from baptism, unless one could be saved without being in Christ. See the reasoning?

Yes, baptism is a necessary part of Salvation. But it is not necessary FOR Salvation. I am not sure you are getting this biblical truth. You don't receive Salvation by baptism. If that was the case, then all baptized people would be saved. You receive Salvation by faith alone. And baptism is part of that Salvation that you receive by faith alone. In other words, and as you said above, what does it mean to be baptized without being in Christ? Also, what does it mean to be in Christ without receiving what is presented to you by baptism? Nothing. But if you don't receive the water for any reason outside your control, this doesn't mean you are not saved, because baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation.

I hope you got it this time.

Can you direct me to a passage that says "FAITH ALONE" puts one into Christ?

I would say all the New Testament. But as for now, you may take the passages that we already quoted till now. They all say you can't do anything to earn your Salvation. It is by faith alone.

And take the story of the Ark! How were those people with Noah saved? By doing something while the Flood was happening? Did they swim? Did they build a boat according to human wisdom and art? Not at all! They only entered the Ark that GOD designed, and God closed the door.

Don't have a problem with being in the ark and being in Christ type/antitype. However, Galatians 3:27 plainly states how one gets into Christ. And, it isn't by faith alone. Rather, it's by faith coupled with baptism, just like in Mark 16:16).

Baptism is ITSELF the being in Christ IF you have received it by faith. You are talking about baptism in a very formalist and ceremonial way. But that's not the Christian baptism.

"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." ( Galatians 3:27 )

The verse doesn't say that you are in Christ BY being baptized. It says that real believers are the ONLY people who were baptized into Christ. The verse is not talking about how you become in Christ. It is talking to people who were baptized into Christ by faith alone. What you did is to change the meaning of the verse from being about the meaning of real baptism to be about HOW you receive that meaning.

The Bible clearly teaches that you receive all that by faith alone.

For sure, Acts 2:38 combines repentance and baptism with the coordinating conjuntion "and." Repentance means to turn about, or around. Typically, where man is concerned, it means to turn from sin. While it is the demonstration of "living faith," it has a different meaning.

You can't repent without receiving the Grace of God. And you receive the Grace of God by faith alone.

As we saw before, Jesus mentioned repentance for forgiveness of sins without mentioning baptism, because baptism is the sign of repentant faith.

All the time, you are quoting the passages that show that baptism is necessary IN Salvation. But nowhere in the Bible it is said that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation.

Note Peter's conclusion, while under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 10:47-48. Was His conclusion the Gentiles were saved? Is that what these passages say? I'm going to venture that this is not what these passages say. Rather, they say simply that none of the Jews there could forbid the Gentiles from being baptized in water in the name of the Lord. Two key thoughts: 1.) the baptism in the name of the Lord is indentified as being in water 2.) the baptism in the name of the Lord is synonymous with the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ in Acts 2:38, which was "for the remission of sins." Therefore, the conclusion is that Cornelius and his household were baptized like those in Acts 2:38,41.

Yes, Cornelius and those who were with him were baptized just like those in Acts 2. But you didn't notice the important point: Cornelius and those who were with him ALREADY received the Gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in a person who is not justified. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in a heart that is not washed from sin. Do you remember why the Holy Spirit could not come before Jesus Christ goes to the Father?

Disagree with your reasoning. Note the process described in Romans 10 ...

13 "For 'whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?" Reversed in order, the logic is you have to have preaching so people can hear the message and believe, and they have to believe in the Lord so they can call on Him to be saved. This proces demonstrates that belief and calling on the Lord aren't the same thing. Belief comes first, then it prompts calling on the name of the Lord. Let's apply this to Acts 22:16. Saul believed, and then was told to call on the name of the Lord by being baptized to wash away his sins. And, he obeyed. Relating it to Romans 10, Ananias preached to Saul, Saul believed the message, then Saul called on the name of the Lord by doing what he was told to wash away his sins. It's a great story!

Calling on the Name of the Lord describes what living faith is. Living faith calls on the Name of the Lord.

What you did in the above quote is to say something like: "Faith lives by living. You can't have living faith without faith"... Well, THAT's what living faith is: it LIVES. And THAT's what living faith is: it calls on the Name of the Lord ALONE. It doesn't rely on good works to provide Salvation.

Okay, let do a practical application and test your conclusion. Acts 2. The Holy Spirit came upon the apostles and Peter preached a sermon. Some of the Jews were convicted in their hearts, which implies/infers they believed the message in verse 37. Therefore, since they heard the word and could be saved by "FAITH alone," then they were saved at this point, right?

What do you mean by "at this point"? Salvation happened on the cross. Nobody saves himself by believing. We RECEIVE the Salvation that ALREADY is FINISHED by faith alone. We don't make our Salvation by some steps that we follow, as you are suggesting. It's not like: DO Faith + DO conviction + DO confession + DO baptism = Salvation. That's not it. You receive the already finished Salvation by faith alone, and that Salvation contains all the graces: repentance and all.

Yes, that would be the right conclusion if the logic you presented is correct. However, the problem I have with this understanding is that you have them saved in verse 37, but their sins haven't yet been taken away as discussed in verse 38. Therefore, you have them being saved while still in their sins. Frankly, I don't see how that's supposed to work. Sins separate a person from God per Isaiah 59:1-2. Therefore, how can/will God save a person from which he is separated? I humbly suggest you diligently rethink your reasoning. Acts 2:38 clearly shows that salvation under the gospel of Christ doesn't occur by faith alone.

On the contrary, Acts 2:38 clearly shows that Salvation cannot be received in any other way than faith alone, because it is already finished on the cross. That's what Peter was telling those people in that sermon.

Your problem is that you think faith is a mind-faith. But faith is the receiving of God's Grace that gives you a new nature and a new will. It's not only agreeing with some truths with your mind. Many Jews believed in Christ but were not saved, as the Bible clearly said ( see John 8 ) . What was their problem? It was that they didn't receive the TRUE Grace of God. They only had a head agreement with what they heard, but their wills were not changed.

If you don't really receive what is presented to you in baptism, then you are not saved, that's for sure. Baptism is necessary in Salvation.

I continue in the next reply by God's Grace.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Sep 3, 2008

No problem with Acts 15:9. It refers to the conversion of the Gentiles in Act s10. I've previously commented on that conversion. However, since we are talking about faith, James 2:14-26 discusses the faith that pleases God. Note verse 21. Abraham's faith prompted him to obey God (i.e., do what He commanded). Thinking back to Acts 2, who truly had faith in God ... the 3,000 that obeyed what they were told to do in verse 38 (see verse 41), or all those that didn't obey what they were told in verse 38? I believe those who had the faith that pleases God did what they were commanded to do, and afterward received the blessings God promised.

So obedient faith ( = living faith ) alone cleanses the heart from sin. It is not faith + obedience. It is obedient faith. James 2 doesn't say that Abraham was justified by faith + works. It clearly says that he was justified by works, meaning by obedient faith. Read James 2 again, and see if it ever says that anyone was justified by faith PLUS works. It never says that.

So going back to Acts 15:

"and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith." ( Acts 15:9 )

So the cleansing of our hearts happens by faith alone. And this faith is a living repentant obedient faith, because it has received the Grace of God. The Grace of God makes you ALIVE, not dead. The Grace of God doesn't only justify you; it also sanctifies you.

As for grace, it has been extended to all people (Titus 2:11). However, since all won't be saved (Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23), salvation cannot be by grace alone. As for faith alone, it has been discussed several times previously in this post.

Salvation is by Grace alone, and this is clear in the Bible. Yes, the Grace of God appeared to all men, and it brought Salvation to all men. ALL may receive that Grace by faith and be saved. But if they don't receive that Grace, this doesn't mean that the Grace of God is unable to save them. If they received it, they would all be saved. It is strange to think that, as you didn't eat the bread, then the bread cannot fill your hunger. Nobody's saying that the Grace of God saves you without faith. But THAT's what Grace is: You don't do anything to be saved; you just RECEIVE that Grace by faith. So Salvation is by Grace alone, not by something you add on that Grace. You receive it as it is, without adding anything on it, and you are saved. And it is enough to receive it to be saved; so Salvation is by faith alone. No need to do anything in addition to receiving it. The Grace of God does all. God gives you in Christ GRACE UPON GRACE. You don't need to invent the other graces; they all come upon the Grace of Salvation.

Really? Jesus baptized them in water? Are you sure? Note John 4:1. It says Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John. But, also note the next verse, which says,

NKJV (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)
NASV (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were)
NIV although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.
NRSV although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptized

They were baptizing IN HIS NAME. I wish you knew what it means to baptize in Christ's Name...

So Judas was baptized by Jesus. Judas was a baptized disciple of Jesus Christ, and yet he was the one who betrayed Him, and he didn't really believe in Him. And many of those who were baptized in the Name of Jesus were not true believers.

In closing, may God bless you in your studies of His word.

And may He bless you, too!

Grace be with you!

YAQUBOS

Kerwin · Sep 4, 2008

Jesus did say make disciples and baptize them so I would say he was speaking about. You can disagree with him of course but then you are a rebel and have no part of him. Rather it would be wise to consider that Jesus once commanded a blind man to wash him self in a pool. I ask If that man had not done as he was told would of his eyes have been healed? I also ask was the man healed by faith or works?

But still I am making an assumption since all that occurs at baptism is that are reborn thus receiving the Holy Spirit and it is living by that Spirit that saves one. If you choose not to live by the Spirit after baptism then you will perish.

YAQUBOS · Sep 5, 2008

Kerwin said:
Jesus did say make disciples and baptize them so I would say he was speaking about. You can disagree with him of course but then you are a rebel and have no part of him. Rather it would be wise to consider that Jesus once commanded a blind man to wash him self in a pool. I ask If that man had not done as he was told would of his eyes have been healed? I also ask was the man healed by faith or works?

Faith.

But still I am making an assumption since all that occurs at baptism is that are reborn thus receiving the Holy Spirit and it is living by that Spirit that saves one.

Not all who are baptized receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. A person is sealed with the Holy Spirit ONLY WHEN HE BELIEVES in Christ:

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise" ( Ephesians 1:13 )

So be baptized as much as you want! If you don't have faith, then you are not sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I remind you also that Cornelius and those who were with him received the Gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized.

If you choose not to live by the Spirit after baptism then you will perish.

But the Lord Jesus said:

"everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" ( John 11:26 )

Do you believe this? Do you believe that those who are alive by faith WILL NEVER DIE?

Actually, Jesus also said:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand." ( John 10:27-28 )

Do you believe that they will never perish?

Only those who are not born again and are sons of perdition perish:

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." ( John 17:12 )

THIS is the real meaning of baptism: Those who are dead with Christ will SURELY walk in newness of life, because they all rose with Him, so they will never perish again, because Christ will not die again anymore:

"Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him." ( Romans 6:8-9 )

As real believers are ONE with Christ in His death and resurrection, therefore:

Christ is NEVER--------------------------------Those in Christ are NEVER
to die again,---------------------------------- to die again,
because--------------------directly means---- because
death no longer is master--------------------- death no longer is master
over Him.------------------------------------ over them.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

Kerwin · Sep 6, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
I remind you also that Cornelius and those who were with him received the Gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized.

That is God acting on them and not rebirth of the Spirit which is different. In the Old Testament we have an account of King Saul being worked on by the Holy Spirit and yet we know that he certainly did not enter the New Covenant. If you read further in the account about Cornelius they were baptized and later Paul does tell the Roman church that the rebirth of their spirit occurred at baptism. I agree that you need faith to be reborn and even to live by that new Spirit.

YAQUBOS said:
Do you believe this? Do you believe that those who are alive by faith WILL NEVER DIE?

I actually was paraphrasing Galatians 5:16-26 which instructs believers to live by the Spirit. I made the connection that the only way to do so is through faith. The passage clearly states if you do not live by the Spirit you will perish.

YAQUBOS · Sep 6, 2008

Kerwin said:
That is God acting on them and not rebirth of the Spirit which is different. In the Old Testament we have an account of King Saul being worked on by the Holy Spirit and yet we know that he certainly did not enter the New Covenant. If you read further in the account about Cornelius they were baptized and later Paul does tell the Roman church that the rebirth of their spirit occurred at baptism. I agree that you need faith to be reborn and even to live by that new Spirit.

Although the Gift of the Holy Spirit is not the new birth, but no one who is not born of God can receive that Gift, as we have seen. Only those who have saving faith are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Cornelius and those who were with him received that Gift, because they were born of God, and that happened BEFORE they were baptized. So the new birth is not the result of baptism, but of Grace received by faith alone. All Old Testament real believers were born again by that faith without being baptized.

The comparison with Saul is irrelevent, because Saul and all Old Testament people didn't receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came on the first Pentecost after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. And entering the New Covenant is not a condition for being born again. David was under the Old Covenant, and yet he was born again.

Paul never said that Cornelius and those who were with him were born again by baptism.

I actually was paraphrasing Galatians 5:16-26 which instructs believers to live by the Spirit. I made the connection that the only way to do so is through faith. The passage clearly states if you do not live by the Spirit you will perish.

Let's quote the passage:

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another." ( Galatians 5:16-26 )

This passage clearly says that those who belong to Christ Jesus HAVE crucified the flesh with all its passions and desires. So how do you expect them to live by the flesh and not by the Spirit? As I told you before, real believers became ONE with Christ in His death and resurrection, so as Christ will never die again, therefore true believers will never die again. They will never live by the flesh again. They SURELY live by the Spirit.

But what you are talking about is the unbelievers or so-called believers who don't have real faith and who live by the flesh. Those who don't live by the Spirit will surely perish.

And a N.B.: The passage that we quoted from Galatians doesn't only talk about LIVING by the Spirit. It also talks about WALKING by the Spirit and about being LED by the Spirit. True believers certainly LIVE by the Spirit and they are certainly LED by the Spirit. If they are not alive and are not led by the Spirit, then they are not true believers. But sometimes they do not WALK by the Spirit, and therefore Paul teaches them that, as they live by the Spirit, then they naturally must also WALK by the Spirit. A by-nature-disobedient real Christian is a contradiction. But a real Christian or a real believer may disobey God in a certain STEP of his WALKING. The solution for that is not to walk by the flesh to repair what was dammaged. The solution is to continue under the cross by the Spirit, and not by the flesh. The solution is not to try to do a certain sacrament or some good works or some mortifications to receive the forgiveness of God; that would be walking by the flesh. The forgiveness of God is for free, because the price was paid by Jesus Christ, His precious Blood.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS

cottonmather · Sep 13, 2008

Wow, nobody gives a short, simple response around here, do they?

YAQUBOS · Sep 14, 2008

cottonmather said:
Wow, nobody gives a short, simple response around here, do they?

Do you think we needed 66 books in the Bible so that humans could know the Message of God?

Humans usually want brief answers, although they don't know the basics that lead to that brief answer. So if you give them the brief answer, they don't understand it, because they don't have the basics of the Faith.

I have simply and shortly said: Baptism is not necessary FOR Salvation, but it is necessary IN Salvation ( a necessary part of Salvation. ) But some people here couldn't understand this, so we had to explain.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS

Soul Searcher · Sep 15, 2008

Actually the brief answer is very easy to understand. That answer is No.
It is the long winded responses that are impossible to understand.

Kerwin · Sep 16, 2008

Soul Searcher said:
Actually the brief answer is very easy to understand. That answer is No.
It is the long winded responses that are impossible to understand.

So Jesus did not really mean it when commanded his 11 disciples to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them and teaching them to obey all of Jesus' commands.

Matthew 28:19-20 said:
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

You may believe that if you choose but I choose to believe Jesus meant what he said.

Soul Searcher · Sep 16, 2008

Kerwin said:
So Jesus did not really mean it when commanded his 11 disciples to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them and teaching them to obey all of Jesus' commands.

You may believe that if you choose but I choose to believe Jesus meant what he said.

Believe what you will but the fact remains that our salvation does not lay in the hands of another man [as in the one who would or would not baptise us] all the water in the world will not save a single soul yet all can be saved without a drop.

Kerwin · Sep 17, 2008

Soul Searcher said:
Believe what you will but the fact remains that our salvation does not lay in the hands of another man [as in the one who would or would not baptise us] all the water in the world will not save a single soul yet all can be saved without a drop.

The fact remains that you are incorrect when you say Jesus is a liar and by stating baptism is not necessary for salvation you are in fact stating that. I am not of course saying that baptism is all that is necessary but only that it must be part of the process. I will give you an example of what I mean. Jesus performed a miracle by putting mud on a blind mans eyes and commanding him to wash at a certain pool. Was washing at that pool necessary for than blind man to see? Did the hands of the blind man cure his blindness or was if faith in Jesus.

You on the other hand are saying the blind man would have been healed had he disobeyed Jesus and not washed himself in that pool. As James said faith without works is dead and so are those who choose to willfully disobey the commands of Jesus.

John 9:11(NIV) said:
11He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."

Soul Searcher · Sep 17, 2008

Kerwin said:
The fact remains that you are incorrect when you say Jesus is a liar and by stating baptism is not necessary for salvation you are in fact stating that.

I did not say Jesus was or is a liar. Nice try though. This is a very old arguement that I tired of long ago but consider that Jesus saved the thief on the cross without baptising him or at least he indicated that he would do so. So either it is not required according to Jesus or Jesus was telling the thief a lie. So who is it that is calling Jesus a liar with thier argument?

I am not of course saying that baptism is all that is necessary but only that it must be part of the process. I will give you an example of what I mean. Jesus performed a miracle by putting mud on a blind mans eyes and commanding him to wash at a certain pool. Was washing at that pool necessary for than blind man to see? Did the hands of the blind man cure his blindness or was if faith in Jesus.

Which has nothing to do with baptism. Remember the passage you quoted to support your assertion was that Jesus told his disciples to go and baptise all nations. He did not tell all nations to go and be baptised else you can not be saved. Seems you have something backwards, and what of those who never had anyone to baptise them do they burn in hell for ever because some man failed to dunk the in a pool of water or sprinkle water over them or whatever ritual you think is the correct one? Nonsense.

You on the other hand are saying the blind man would have been healed had he disobeyed Jesus and not washed himself in that pool. As James said faith without works is dead and so are those who choose to willfully disobey the commands of Jesus.

No I said no such thing I said plainly and simply that baptisim is not required for salvation. It is not nessacary at all. It is important to some churches and it is important for some people to be baptised so that they can be seen by men and be thought of as having became pure or having the spirit but in truth the baptism has nothing to do with it. It is a ritual preformed by men in the witness on men for the pleasure of men and nothing more.

Kerwin · Sep 17, 2008

Soul Searcher said:
I did not say Jesus was or is a liar. Nice try though. This is a very old argument that I tired of long ago but consider that Jesus saved the thief on the cross without baptizing him or at least he indicated that he would do so. So either it is not required according to Jesus or Jesus was telling the thief a lie. So who is it that is calling Jesus a liar with their argument?

The thief on the cross was still under the Law as Jesus had not yet died or been resurrected and the Holy Spirit had not yet come to announce the new covenant between man and God. The scripture I mentioned came after Jesus resurrection. The question your response brings up is do you know the difference between the old and new covenant?

Soul Searcher said:
Which has nothing to do with baptism.

That shows you are unversed in the purpose for baptism even though Romans 6 tells us.

Romans 6:3-4(NIV) said:
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

As you can see from Pauls testimony a miracle takes place at baptism just like a miracle took place for the blind man when he washed himself in the pool. The miracle that occurs at baptism is that the Holy Spirit gives you the spirit of Christ to live by.

Soul Searcher said:
He did not tell all nations to go and be baptized else you can not be saved.

Though I see your argument, I know that command was given to the disciples and showed what God expected of them and therefore I know by using logical extension that he expects those the 11 taught to be baptized and also to be taught to obey all Jesus commanded. Here is another passage where Peter addresses other Christians with these words.

1 Peter 3:21 said:
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you alsonot the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Soul Searcher said:
It is a ritual preformed by men in the witness on men for the pleasure of men and nothing more.

So that is why you believe Peter and others performed this so called ritual even though you know Jesus commanded them to do so. What you are stating is certainly not in scripture.

Act 2:38-41(NIV) said:
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offfor all whom the Lord our God will call." 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Soul Searcher · Sep 17, 2008

Again it is a ritual that has no bearing on the status of the soul of anyone. It does have meaning to thier peers in the church or most churches anyway. It is not however required for salvation in anyway.

You can make excuses, invent exceptions, assume what you will yet the bible plainly teaches that all will be saved and the only verse that even implies baptism is required is the one found in later versions of Mark that quite clearly was a forgery.

Evergreen48 · Sep 17, 2008

No one seems to be able to tell for sure what the proper mode of baptism is. Differemt denominations have different opinions as to how this ought to be performed. Some say 'sprinkling' is the proper form or mode, while others declare vehemently that we must be immersed completely, and are just as passionate about there being present at this occasion, someone who does the immersing. It seems to me that if baptism is necessary to anyone's salvation, how it is performed would be of great importance, and a mistake or error in understanding could and would effect grave consequences to those who err regarding this. (And it is obvious that many do err, as when there is disagreement on something, someone has to be right and someone must be wrong.) My personal testimony on this is that I was just as 'saved' as I was ever going to be before I was ever baptised.

. . . . . . Did the hands of the blind man cure his blindness or was if faith in Jesus.

Neither. God was the one who cured him, and what the man did had nothing at all to do with the cure.

Kerwin · Sep 18, 2008

Soul Searcher said:
Again it is a ritual that has no bearing on the status of the soul of anyone. It does have meaning to thier peers in the church or most churches anyway. It is not however required for salvation in anyway. [

You can make excuses, invent exceptions, assume what you will yet the bible plainly teaches that all will be saved and the only verse that even implies baptism is required is the one found in later versions of Mark that quite clearly was a forgery./QUOTE]

Ya Right! You should heed Gods command not to add or subtract from His word. I have said it previously and I will say it again what you say is clearly not in scripture while what I say is.

[QUOTE="]Acts 2:38(NIV)"38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I choose to believe the message of salvation taught by Peter and others.

Soul Searcher · Sep 18, 2008

Kerwin said:
Soul Searcher said:

Again it is a ritual that has no bearing on the status of the soul of anyone. It does have meaning to thier peers in the church or most churches anyway. It is not however required for salvation in anyway.

You can make excuses, invent exceptions, assume what you will yet the bible plainly teaches that all will be saved and the only verse that even implies baptism is required is the one found in later versions of Mark that quite clearly was a forgery.

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Ya Right! You should heed God’s command not to add or subtract from His word. I have said it previously and I will say it again what you say is clearly not in scripture while what I say is.

I neither added nor took away. Someone did add a few verses to Mark along the way. The fact that those verses do not exist in the older known copies of Mark is pretty clear evidence of that and is a well known fact to those who have studied a little history related to the bible.

And BTW It was not 'Gods Command' as you call it that no one add or take away from the book we call the bible. That was actually a line supposedly written by John in the book of revelation to which we have added 65 books so that rule was broken long ago and continues to be broken by anyone who owns a bible.

I choose to believe the message of salvation taught by Peter and others.

Good for you. I tend to beleive what makes the most sense given a situtation. Somehow "Let this preacher man dunk you in the water or else burn in hell for all eternity" does not make any sense at all. Sounds like something that was made up by a man with less than average intelligence.

Of course baptism was a good thing in those times as for many it would be the closest they came to a bath that year.

Kerwin · Sep 18, 2008

Evergreen 48 said:
No one seems to be able to tell for sure what the proper mode of baptism is.

[FONT=&quot]Some of the confusion is caused by translation as for reason unknown most translators do not translate the Greek word to its more literal English translation which would be to submerge, immerse, or to dip. There is also a minority opinion that it can be used in other situation to indicate washing as in the Jewish custom of washing before eating. What that washing entailed seems to be debatable and I have not researched it. I do know the Jews practice immersion of converts but their technique varies from that generally practiced by those of various Christian sects as the Baptizer is a witness and does not physically perform the baptism. The person being baptized also immerses themselves in living water more than one time. The Jewish practice does seem to differ from the baptism testified in scripture as the baptizer does not enter the water and both the baptizer and baptizee do in Scripture as you can see. It may be the Jews altered their practice because of anti-Christian bias or for another reason. [/FONT]

Acts 8:36-39(NIV) said:
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

I do want to point out that Paul said when speaking of baptism that we were buried with Jesus at that time and that seems to clearly indicate immersion. Still if you are not following the true gospel then baptism itself is useless except for getting wet. Since getting baptized is clearly part of the message of gospel then you cannot be following the true gospel without knowing that it is necessary for salvation.

Soul Searcher · Sep 18, 2008

The Gospel [The Good News] is that Jesus is the saviour of the world, of all men, women, children.

Baptism is a ritual preformed by men.

Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

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