Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

Now continuing about eternal life and eternal hell...

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal ( αιωνιον ) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" ( Matthew 25:41 )

"These will go away into eternal ( αιωνιον ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal ( αιωνιον ) life." ( Matthew 25:46 )

As there is an eternal life for the righteous, there is also an eternal punishment of fire for the accursed ones.

YAQUBOS†

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
And if they accept the definition of the Bible they are true Christians.

YAQUBOS

KCDAD said:
And that is?

YAQUBOS said:
That is what I have been saying all the time since the beginning of this thread. You are taking us back to the beginning, as if we didn't talk all that time!! Did you forget that you even opened a new thread to my name for that purpose??

KCDAD, where are you?

What I am asking for is the definition of the Bible that makes someone a true Christian...

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
Yes.

But when you read it, you can't understand because you don't have time to read the Bible and to know God:

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience" ( Colossians 3:3-6 )

I am sure you are surprised to read these things...

By the way, you forgot that I have already quoted Jesus about hell, and He says it is the unquenchable fire. I am still waiting to see where He said that hell is a garbage dump... But, as I told you in the other thread that you opened to my name, you are not so courageous as to defend your false points to the end...

YAQUBOS

Gehenna is a garbage dump.

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
God is loving, but not loving sin. Therefore He wants to save you from that bad sin.

Listen to Him and repent.

YAQUBOS

What sin do I need to be saved from? My rebellious attitude?

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
Now continuing about eternal life and eternal hell...

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal ( αιωνιον ) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels" ( Matthew 25:41 )

"These will go away into eternal ( αιωνιον ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal ( αιωνιον ) life." ( Matthew 25:46 )

As there is an eternal life for the righteous, there is also an eternal punishment of fire for the accursed ones.

YAQUBOS†

He is talking about sheep and goats (Jews and Gentiles) in a parable... what about that don't you get?

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
What I am asking for is the definition of the Bible that makes someone a true Christian...

It's not the definition that makes you a true Christian. But if you are a true Christian you accept the right definition of God's Word.

God says that Jesus Christ came to save us from sin and from eternal death. No human is able to save himself from sin, because all are sinners by nature. So no one can be saved by his works. Only Christ can make you free. So you need to accept His Salvation and leave sin.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
Gehenna is a garbage dump.

OK. Now give us the biblical reference. Thank you.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
What sin do I need to be saved from? My rebellious attitude?

All sins, without exception. Even if you have one sin, you will deserve eternal hell.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
He is talking about sheep and goats (Jews and Gentiles) in a parable... what about that don't you get?

No, He is not talking about Jews and Gentiles. Open the context and see.

YAQUBOS

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
It's not the definition that makes you a true Christian. But if you are a true Christian you accept the right definition of God's Word.

Non sequitor

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
No, He is not talking about Jews and Gentiles. Open the context and see.

YAQUBOS

Anytime a Jew of that time talked about goats or pigs or dogs he was talking about Gentiles. Jews were the sheep.

I understand the context of a parable, and in this one Jesus is teaching that sheep and goats (Jews and Gentiles) are not defined by beliefs or religious or national affiliiations. It is a parable so NOTHING is "as it appears"... it is symbolic, metaphorical and imagery.

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
All sins, without exception. Even if you have one sin, you will deserve eternal hell.

YAQUBOS

But sin is NOT something you do. No particular behavior is in itself good or bad... but only thinking so makes it so. It is the attitude, intention or motivation of the actor that determines the morality or ethics of a behavior.

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
OK. Now give us the biblical reference. Thank you.

YAQUBOS

2 Chronicles 28:1-3 (NIV) Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. Unlike David his father, he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD. 2 He walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and also made cast idols for worshiping the Baals. 3 He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his sons in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
2 Chronicles 33:1-6 (NIV) Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. 2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. 3 He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had demolished; he also erected altars to the Baals and made Asherah poles. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. 4 He built altars in the temple of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, "My Name will remain in Jerusalem forever." 5 In both courts of the temple of the LORD, he built altars to all the starry hosts. 6 He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
Jeremiah 32:32-35 (NIV) The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done--they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
2 Kings 23:8-10 (NIV) Josiah brought all the priests from the towns of Judah and desecrated the high places, from Geba to Beersheba, where the priests had burned incense. He broke down the shrines at the gates--at the entrance to the Gate of Joshua, the city governor, which is on the left of the city gate. 9 Although the priests of the high places did not serve at the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, they ate unleavened bread with their fellow priests. 10 He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech.
Jeremiah 7:31-32 (NIV) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
Anytime a Jew of that time talked about goats or pigs or dogs he was talking about Gentiles. Jews were the sheep.

I told you to see what the CONTEXT says, and not what your imagination says...

Let's see what the Bible says about all those imaginations of yours:

"AND IN HIS NAME THE GENTILES WILL HOPE." ( Matthew 12:21 )

Oh, so the Gentiles will believe in Jesus Christ...

Let's see another blessed truth coming from the holy mouth of the Savior Himself:

"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ( Matthew 8:11-12 )

Oh, it seems that many Jews will not recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, although they are the sons of the kingdom.

And, by the way, as you say that the Jews are the sheep, let's see what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews:

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." ( John 10:26 )

So the unbelieving Jews are NOT of His sheep...

The believing Jews are His sheep. Ah, and even more:

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." ( John 10:16 )

So there are other sheep that are not from the fold of the Jews; and they also will believe in Christ.

So your comments are totally out of context. By the way, the context of the parable also doesn't mention Jews and Gentiles.

I understand the context of a parable, and in this one Jesus is teaching that sheep and goats (Jews and Gentiles) are not defined by beliefs or religious or national affiliiations. It is a parable so NOTHING is "as it appears"... it is symbolic, metaphorical and imagery.

And we have seen whom the sheep represent in the Bible.

Have a nice time.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
But sin is NOT something you do. No particular behavior is in itself good or bad... but only thinking so makes it so. It is the attitude, intention or motivation of the actor that determines the morality or ethics of a behavior.

I thank you for admitting this, because, before now, you were arguing that your good behaviors must be considered good even if your heart attitude is not good...

Anyway, look what God says:

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." ( 1 John 3:4 )

You need to be saved of ALL sins without exception.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Feb 21, 2008

KCDAD said:
2 Chronicles 28:1-3 (NIV) Ahaz was twenty years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem sixteen years. Unlike David his father, he did not do what was right in the eyes of the LORD. 2 He walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and also made cast idols for worshiping the Baals. 3 He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his sons in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.
2 Chronicles 33:1-6 (NIV) Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. 2 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD, following the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. 3 He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had demolished; he also erected altars to the Baals and made Asherah poles. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. 4 He built altars in the temple of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, "My Name will remain in Jerusalem forever." 5 In both courts of the temple of the LORD, he built altars to all the starry hosts. 6 He sacrificed his sons in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD, provoking him to anger.
Jeremiah 32:32-35 (NIV) The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done--they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the men of Judah and the people of Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their abominable idols in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
2 Kings 23:8-10 (NIV) Josiah brought all the priests from the towns of Judah and desecrated the high places, from Geba to Beersheba, where the priests had burned incense. He broke down the shrines at the gates--at the entrance to the Gate of Joshua, the city governor, which is on the left of the city gate. 9 Although the priests of the high places did not serve at the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, they ate unleavened bread with their fellow priests. 10 He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire to Molech.
Jeremiah 7:31-32 (NIV) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

I was not talking about the valley of Hinnom. I was talking about the eternal Gehenna, the unquenchable fire

You did like a person who, when he hears us talking about the Jerusalem above, says: Oh, but Jerusalem is a city in Palestine, and it has nothing to do with Heaven! I can quote for you many passages from the Bible saying that Jerusalem is a city that is here, on earth!!

Yes, he can, but I am not talking about that Jerusalem. I am talking about Jerusalem above.

"Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother." ( Galatians 4:25-26 )

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels" ( Hebrews 12:22 )

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband." ( Revelation 21:2 )

Now KCDAD may exclaim: "You don't understand! There is not a Jerusalem above! Jerusalem is the name of a city that is in Palestine!!" And then he goes on to quote many passages proving that Jerusalem is a city in Palestine.

I agree! Jerusalem is a city in Palestine. But I am not talking about that Jerusalem.

In the same way, I agree: The Valley of Hinnom is a historical valley somewhere near the earthly Jerusalem. But I am not talking about that place. I am talking about the eternal Gehenna, the unquenchable fire.

Please, quote Jesus saying that this eternal unquenchable fire will be in a certain valley here on earth, and that it is a garbage dump

YAQUBOS

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
I thank you for admitting this, because, before now, you were arguing that your good behaviors must be considered good even if your heart attitude is not good...

Anyway, look what God says:

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." ( 1 John 3:4 )

You need to be saved of ALL sins without exception.

YAQUBOS

I said that is true ONLY if sin is something you do. ONLY if sin a behavior, or action.

If sin is an attitude, it doesn't matter what you do... ONLY the attitude, motivation or intention matters.

KCDAD · Feb 21, 2008

YAQUBOS said:
I was not talking about the valley of Hinnom. I was talking about the eternal Gehenna, the unquenchable fire

You did like a person who, when he hears us talking about the Jerusalem above, says: Oh, but Jerusalem is a city in Palestine, and it has nothing to do with Heaven! I can quote for you many passages from the Bible saying that Jerusalem is a city that is here, on earth!!

Yes, he can, but I am not talking about that Jerusalem. I am talking about Jerusalem above.

"Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother." ( Galatians 4:25-26 )

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels" ( Hebrews 12:22 )

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband." ( Revelation 21:2 )

Now KCDAD may exclaim: "You don't understand! There is not a Jerusalem above! Jerusalem is the name of a city that is in Palestine!!" And then he goes on to quote many passages proving that Jerusalem is a city in Palestine.

I agree! Jerusalem is a city in Palestine. But I am not talking about that Jerusalem.

In the same way, I agree: The Valley of Hinnom is a historical valley somewhere near the earthly Jerusalem. But I am not talking about that place. I am talking about the eternal Gehenna, the unquenchable fire.

Please, quote Jesus saying that this eternal unquenchable fire will be in a certain valley here on earth, and that it is a garbage dump

YAQUBOS

GEHENNA IS THE VALLEY OF BEN HINNOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought you were pretending to understand GREEK.

There is no Jerusalem "above". It is a METAPHOR for the Kingdom of God..

EXACTLY like Gehenna is a METAPHOR for spiritual separation from God.

NEITHER metaphor refers to any place... it is a physical metaphor for a spiritual reality.

YAQUBOS · Feb 23, 2008

KCDAD said:
I said that is true ONLY if sin is something you do. ONLY if sin a behavior, or action.

If sin is an attitude, it doesn't matter what you do... ONLY the attitude, motivation or intention matters.

We have seen that only a bad tree gives bad fruit.

YAQUBOS

YAQUBOS · Feb 23, 2008

N.B.: You forgot to admit that you were wrong concerning the sheep and the goats...

Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

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