Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
It says that some of us were begotten a second time (i.e. "again").
Also, I edited post #218.
re #219.
The question is can one be saved again(rebirth/regeneration) after falling into sin. I would answer in the affirmative. Jesus himself taught that in the parable of the prodigal son. In Luke 15:24,32 Jesus twice stated that the prodigal son was dead but alive again. This does not refer to physical death as the prodigal never died physically so it can only mean spiritual death. When an unsaved person comes to faith in Christ, he/she is made alive in Christ (first time). If such a believer then habitually sins such as the prodigal did when he lived a rebellious lifestyle, he/she becomes spiritually dead. If he/she confesses, repents of sinning and returns to the Father, as the prodigal did, then he/she is made alive again. Thus, one can lose their salvation but be saved again/rebirthed upon genuine repentance.The rebirth/regeneration can only happen once. Hebrews 6 and 2 Peter 2:19-22
Which indicates that you can be restored from your fallen state.That's not what again means. It just means they were restored from their fallen state.
Hey @Invalidusername , what about 1 Corinthians 5:4-5?
"“Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Is it not interesting that a guy is to be 'delivered over to Satan' and yet such a delivery will see his spirit saved in the day of the Lord Jesus?
Remember the sin this guy was committing - sleeping with his stepmother.
In 2 Corinthians 2:6,7, it appears that Paul might be encouraging the Corinthians to welcome the guy back.
Which indicates that you can be restored from your fallen state.
The question is can one be saved again(rebirth/regeneration) after falling into sin. I would answer in the affirmative. Jesus himself taught that in the parable of the prodigal son. In Luke 15:24,32 Jesus twice stated that the prodigal son was dead but alive again. This does not refer to physical death as the prodigal never died physically so it can only mean spiritual death. When an unsaved person comes to faith in Christ, he/she is made alive in Christ (first time). If such a believer then habitually sins such as the prodigal did when he lived a rebellious lifestyle, he/she becomes spiritually dead. If he/she confesses, repents of sinning and returns to the Father, as the prodigal did, then he/she is made alive again. Thus, one can lose their salvation but be saved again/rebirthed upon genuine repentance.
Regarding Hebrews 6 "it is impossible "to restore them again to repentance" precisely because they are "crucifying in themselves the Son of God and subjecting Him to open shame." The Greek verb tenses are important to note in this v.6 because they are present tense verbs; i.e. "crucifying" and "subjecting" which denote ongoing action. No forgiveness is possible because those committing these actions are still in the process of committing and continuing these sins. They have not demonstrated any repentance; therefore no forgiveness making it impossible to restore them again. If they genuinely repented, restoration would still be possible but this verse indicates that they did not do so.
Similarly, in 2 Pet 2:22 the Greek word for "overcome" is hēttōntai which is a present tense verb. They are presently overcome and therefore in a present state of sinning and therefore forgiveness is not possible. However, IF they would genuinely repent, restoration is possible.
Actually is isn't equivalent at all.Obviously, you don't understand. Peter denied Christ. Taking the mark is the equivalent to denying Christ. Therefore they are the same.
How come Jesus never preached for men to merely receive a perfect gift and they’d never be able to lose it? Frankly, neither did anyone else for that matter.
How come the gift is not called free? how come all of them required repentance if it was a gift?
God isn't the one who is preventing you, it is something you have to cooperate.That's true but he had remorse and so thus the Holy Spirit was still not finished with him.
Once you've been exposed to the light and fall away it's a much more severe sin. Fallen state as in they've never seen the light.
The problem is you're giving the tenses too much of a significance. Hebrews 6 says it is impossible to bring them back to repentance. This means they cannot repent after falling away.
How come Jesus never preached for men to merely receive a perfect gift and they’d never be able to lose it? Frankly, neither did anyone else for that matter.
How come the gift is not called free? how come all of them required repentance if it was a gift?
God isn't the one who is preventing you, it is something you have to cooperate.
Your understanding is deficient - but your choice. Is not taking the mark equivalent to denying Jesus as Lord and worshiping Him only? Yes or no?Actually is isn't equivalent at all.
One, because he didn't take the mark (because the "mark" hasn't been implemented yet) and two , Peter is a child of God.
It is impossible for those who are saved to receive the mark of the Beast.
Not at all. If you are familiar with Koine Greek, you would know that it is a very precise language - more so than English. If you are not familiar with parsing the Greek then I would suggest you familiarize yourself with it as it aids greatly in understanding Scripture. They cannot repent WHILE (present tense) they are falling away since their actions demonstrate they have not ceased to sin. One cannot repent of sin and keep on doing it can they?The problem is you're giving the tenses too much of a significance. Hebrews 6 says it is impossible to bring them back to repentance. This means they cannot repent after falling away.
Not at all. If you are familiar with Koine Greek, you would know that it is a very precise language - more so than English. If you are not familiar with parsing the Greek then I would suggest you familiarize yourself with it as it aids greatly in understanding Scripture. They cannot repent WHILE (present tense) they are falling away since their actions demonstrate they have not ceased to sin. One cannot repent of sin and keep on doing it can they?
It certainly does not say "recrucified" as you claim. The Greek word is ἀνασταυροῦντας which is a present tense participle:It also says they've recrucified Christ unto themselves(past term) and there is no way to undo that.
It certainly does not say "recrucified" as you claim. The Greek word is ἀνασταυροῦντας which is a present tense participle:
"and have committed apostasy, to restore them to repentance, since to their own harm they are crucifying (anastaurountas | ἀνασταυροῦντας | pres act ptcp acc pl masc) the Son of God again (anastaurountas | ἀνασταυροῦντας | pres act ptcp acc pl masc) and exposing him to public shame.
Like I suggested earlier study the original Greek text lest you draw wrong conclusions.
A. "Once you've fallen away (isn't the past)"- correct logic as it is a past tense event.Okay so you're saying it's not impossible to bring them back to repentance? That contradicts what it's saying. The previous part "have committed apostasy" is certainly in past terms. Once you've FALLEN AWAY(isn't that past?). It doesn't say "If you're falling away". It says "If you have fallen away". There's a finality to the state of fallen away. Yes when they've fallen away they enter a present state of ongoing apostasy but that does not mean that magically later they can repent when it clearly says there's in impossibility. If anything the present term indicates that it will continue and never change.
Would you at least be able to see the logic in what I'm saying?
Also the parable about the prodigal son, lost coin, and lost sheep is NOT talking about believers being dead again and then being "refound". It's talking about Christ seeking after lost sinners. They are dead but they are God's children. Jesus clearly teaches that if you're His child you will come to Him. You simply aren't aware that you're His child yet. However if you became a Christian and then fell away, you were never His child. Just like 2 Peter 2:19-22 says "A dog returns to it's vomit and the pig returns to wallowing in the mud." The dog was always a dog and the pig was always a pig. They were never sheep.
A. "Once you've fallen away (isn't the past)"- correct logic as it is a past tense event.
B. "Later they can repent when it clearly says there's in impossibility" - incorrect logic.
B (conclusion) does not necessarily follow A (premise).
The proper understanding is that they have fallen away upon commencing and continuing to sin which is the reason for the Greek present tense verb = habitual sin that evidences no repentance whatsoever. Thus the "impossibility" is derived from the fact that they continue sinning. It simply means as long as there is habitual sin without repentance - it is impossible to restore them back to repentance.
It does not state if they ceased sinning and repented, it is impossible to restore them back. Peter fell away and denied the Lord not once but thrice. Yet he was later restored. If I as a genuine believer, develop an alcohol or drug problem or any other habitual sin, are you claiming that it is impossible to stop sinning, seek repentance and be forgiven/restored? I would find that hard to believe.
Your claim referencing the parables in Luke 15 is unsupportable based on the text. You neglected to explain how the prodigal was made alive AGAIN. One can only be made alive again, if only one was made alive (regenerated in the Spirit) in the first place. After being spiritually dead though habitual sin such as the prodigal was, one can return in repentance to the father and be made ALIVE AGAIN. Logic dictates that being made alive again can never apply to lost sinners who were never initially made alive in Christ.
Same thing with the parable about the lost sheep. The lost sheep was part of the flock of 100 sheep v.4 but was lost and became separated from the other 99 sheep. This 99 sheep are referenced in v.7 as "just persons who need no repentance." This means that the lost sheep was originally part of the 99 other sheep who NEED NO REPENTANCE and not a "lost sinner" who has not come to Christ yet as you claim. Those who need no repentance can in no way refer to unsaved, lost people. The lone sheep who needed no repentance wandered away this flock and became lost because of sin. As a result, that lost sheep is labeled as a SINNER, v.7 and is spiritually dead. However, there is joy in heaven now that that the sinner/lost sheep has repented and restored to the flock, v.7.
Jesus therefore taught that one can be saved, become lost (sheep) or dead (prodigal) but upon genuine repentance be forgiven and restored to a right relationship with God.
Lastly ironically, you use the very same argument that those who hold to OSAS use. They use the excuse that those who fall away were never his children in order to claim that those who are his children can never fall away. While it is indeed true in some scriptures that some who fell away, were never his children to begin with, it does not logically follow that all who fall away were never his children. That would be a logically fallacy of over-generalizing. Akin to saying that because some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown eggs. There are those who fall away because they were never saved to begin with - but there are also those who fall away because of unbelief and/or sin.
Paul is excommunicating that person in the hope it will save him. Paul didn't say that his spirit will be saved but may be saved.Hey @Invalidusername , what about 1 Corinthians 5:4-5?
"“Deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
Is it not interesting that a guy is to be 'delivered over to Satan' and yet such a delivery will see his spirit saved in the day of the Lord Jesus?
Remember the sin this guy was committing - sleeping with his stepmother.
In 2 Corinthians 2:6,7, it appears that Paul might be encouraging the Corinthians to welcome the guy back.
Perhaps but the point that it 'may' be saved indicates that even after being handed over to Satan, salvation is still available.Paul is excommunicating that person in the hope it will save him. Paul didn't say that his spirit will be saved but may be saved.
You seem QUITE remorseful from where I'm sitting, dudeThat's true but he had remorse and so thus the Holy Spirit was still not finished with him.
Perhaps - but define 'fallen away'. What does that look like?Once you've been exposed to the light and fall away it's a much more severe sin. Fallen state as in they've never seen the light.
Untrue. You seem PRETTY convicted about both the doctrine of loss of salvation AND that you have lost it.Cooperate with what? I don't think you understand. I have no conviction of anything.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?