Is anything <= God?

erealmz said:

This is a beautiful concept. If God was presented in this way through a perfect system of faith that he truly created, then I would most likely still believe in him. But the fallible Bible does not hold up to such a system and so I do not believe it is truly his word.

Click to expand...

The Bible is not God, and Christianity is not Islam. The Word of God is not a book, he is a person. And you will never find a perfect faith in an imperfect humanity; you are searching in the wrong place.

Stop looking at stuff in creation and resenting that it is not God. Look through creation and towards the very best concept of God you can possibly conceive instead, and see where it leads you.

The god you claim not to believe in is one I don't believe in either. But if you had a torch that was far too dim to be of use in a particular situation would you condemn all torches as inadequate, or would you get yourself one which is fit for your purpose?

Same with God. Chuck away the Noddy version; find the real one.

erealmz said:

There is as much a point in dividing the "universe" into many as there is in creating one to begin with. If God can do a thing then why not do a thing?

If God is as great/present/constant as you explain here, then what is the point of interacting with us at all? Or creating us? He'd have no need/desire/impulse to do so since he would lack nothing and so would not be presented with such.

Click to expand...

Love.

erealmz said:

There is as much a point in dividing the "universe" into many as there is in creating one to begin with. If God can do a thing then why not do a thing?

If God is as great/present/constant as you explain here, then what is the point of interacting with us at all? Or creating us? He'd have no need/desire/impulse to do so since he would lack nothing and so would not be presented with such.

Click to expand...

unfortunately in this world there have been not a few misbeliefs about God, and one of them is that God is (supposedly) so mighty that He is (ostensibly) fully able to do everything without exception at any time - of course i am not trying to say that He is not almighty, but if He has really been fully able to do everything always since the beginning, then (believe me) He would save all humans/souls without exception, but, as we (humans) have been able to see, in practice, there has not been full salvation for many people, because God has been in struggle with the "darkness" and, unfortunately, there have not been enough true spiritual servants and witnesses on His side to defend the position of the "Light" - so He has not been fully able to save the world, and this is an indication that righteous interaction with the true God is important...

you ask why He created us?!

first, what is God?!, the true One is the system Administrator/Provider of life, and His mission/purpose/job is to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life - the egoistic mind is (the one that is) inclined to think if someone is rich enough to live carelessly, they don't (need to) care about/for anyone (maybe except themselves)... - in fact, the love of the true God is so great that He doesn't want any of the souls to (have to) function as a God(system Administrator of life - which is a very laborious/time-consuming job), which is why He is the only (true) God and there is no more than one undivided universe...

Blessings

erealmz said:

Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

Click to expand...

If we assume God is inside Nature, physics, then God < nature.

But...in order to be the originator, creator, of nature, He can't be inside or subject to nature, but must be independent of nature in some way.

I think while we can know some things about God, He is unknowable in His totality -- 'transcendent' is one word for that.

Joseph Campbell said that when trying to speak about the transcendent --

* Poor descriptions attempt to specify that which cannot be specified, and fail.
* Better descriptions try to suggest the ineffable, but fail.
* The best descriptions help point at the ineffable, so we might head in that direction of finding.

But, as Campbell said, even that is inadequate to capture the ineffable. We are merely given a chance to try to find Him.

It's a seeking process.

13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

Peter wrote that God "accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."

Why is it this way? Because trust is key to lasting love. "Faith" is trust.

Catherineanne said:

Try starting with St Anselm. He suggests that God is that, greater than which we cannot conceive.

In other words, our very best concepts of who and what God is have to be true. If we then refine our concepts and find a more humane, or more generous, or more loving version of God, then we have to refine our concept. God himself does not change, but our understanding of just how loving, generous and merciful he is change year on year as we gain in our own humanity.

Therefore a concept that was acceptable 2000 years ago may well be insufficient today. God has not changed; we have.

Some representations of God leave a lot to be desired, and very often when talking to those who claim not to believe in God they will describe one of these inadequate representations. They tell me that they cannot believe in a God who would sent people to eternal hellfire, for example.

The simple answer to that one is that the god they don't believe in is one I don't believe in either; it is an inadequate concept which fails Anselm's test. Is it possible to imagine a God more loving than one who tortures people endlessly? Of course it is; therefore the psychopath god is out; the Living God of love, mercy and compassion is in.

If you don't believe in God perhaps your imagination is letting you down; your idea of God is quite simply too small, too human, too fallible, too resentful or angry. God is none of these things.

Click to expand...

I rated your post "winner" anyway, because most of it is SO spot on! I'm just not sure why you said that the ancient understanding of God was inadequate, especially in reference to a God that behaved like a psychopath - because that seems to be a much more modern interpretation (modern in terms of all of Christian history considered anyway).

But your point is such an important one, and often what atheists today need to hear.

The irony is, many atheists have a better concept of who God truly IS in their hearts than some professed Christians do. I believe God put it in all of us. They just don't find that God in the places they have looked within modern Christianity. And there is the great disappointment of expectation.

~Anastasia~ said:

I rated your post "winner" anyway, because most of it is SO spot on! I'm just not sure why you said that the ancient understanding of God was inadequate, especially in reference to a God that behaved like a psychopath - because that seems to be a much more modern interpretation (modern in terms of all of Christian history considered anyway).

Click to expand...

Yes it is a modern interpretation, but also as old as the hills. The desert Fathers and Mothers knew this truth; St Isaac of Syria knew it. Countless saints have known it.

When Moses asks God his name God declines to give it, but offers a paraphrase instead; 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.' That is as good a name for God as you will find anywhere.

The Bible itself says that people misunderstood who God was, over and over again. Prophet after prophet tried to tell them, but they still insisted that God wanted random genocide, animal slaughter, etc. Eventually the Lord himself came to make clear that justice, mercy and compassion go together, and that there is no place for enmity, bitterness, bigotry, racism; none of the ways we divide humanity into acceptable and unacceptable. There is only one species of humanity.

Here is just one example of God in effect telling Israel that he is not a psychopath:

Isaiah 1

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it isiniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Zion Corrupted

21How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

22Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

23Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

But your point is such an important one, and often what atheists today need to hear.

The irony is, many atheists have a better concept of who God truly IS in their hearts than some professed Christians do. I believe God put it in all of us. They just don't find that God in the places they have looked within modern Christianity. And there is the great disappointment of expectation.

Click to expand...

Absolutely right. Far too often our concept of God is far too small; perhaps inevitably, but we can at least try to constantly expand what we might find in an ever loving, ever compassionate, ever giving God.

I think what we see in the unfolding narrative of the Bible is precisely God's people growing and learning in relation to God. It isn't to say that God wasn't present, revealing Himself to His people in diverse ways since the beginning, since Abraham and Moses; He was, but we're definitely the ones with the problem. The reason why some of the earliest material we see in the Bible seems as though YHVH is Israel's tribal deity is because this is who He is being conceived, but that understanding needs to grow up, and we see that in the Prophets, God isn't merely Israel's god, He is God. Consider the story of Jonah, this is precisely a story about needing to grow up. I don't think it's an accident that St. Paul says things like, "When the fullness of time had come...", after all the Christian view is that all which came before Christ ultimately points to Christ, and it is in Christ that we see God revealed most fully, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father".

-CryptoLutheran

OP:
Q1: " Could there be anything greater than or equal to God? " (X > or = God?)


A1: No. The TRI-UNE God of the Christ-followers' Bible is all everything and good.

Genesis 1:31 ...God saw all that He had made, and behold, it (ALL) was very good.

Romans 8:28 ...And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Revelation 4:11
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”


Q2: " Could there be a reality outside of God? "

A2: Yes. God's creation exists outside of Him. He is not part of it. Heresy = pantheism.

Romans 1: (NASB) 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Isaiah 42:5 ...Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,


Q3: "God ('s Holy SPIRIT) exists within (Man?)?

A3: Only within Believers.

Romans 8:9, 11 ...However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. ...But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16 ...Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

greater no/equal yes

Could anything exist apart from him?

no

Could there be a reality outside of God? ... That he exists within?

no

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

n/a