Is anyone able to explain to me the doctrine of lying symptoms?

[splat]

Hi,

I notice that many word-faith preachers, on divine healing, state that if you have symptoms of sickness in your body, after you have begun to stand in faith, that they are lying symptoms. Does anyone know where this is in scripture? Or do I need to know Greek or Hebrew language to really understand it?

I've been mulling over this for some time so would appreciate your help in this matter.

Look forward to your answers.
Blessings all

Splat.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Hi,

I notice that many word-faith preachers, on divine healing, state that if you have symptoms of sickness in your body, after you have begun to stand in faith, that they are lying symptoms. Does anyone know where this is in scripture? Or do I need to know Greek or Hebrew language to really understand it?

I've been mulling over this for some time so would appreciate your help in this matter.

Look forward to your answers.
Blessings all

Splat.

Those who use the term "lying symptoms" (at least if they are honest and not of the toxic-wof variety) mean the difference between the Truth and Facts.

Truth: Jesus already paid for your healing.
Fact: you have have symptoms of a cold.

Since Jesus already paid for your healing, sickness has no place on your body. But because we are carnal, we do occassionally step into the curse of this world and allow sickness to touch us. The symptoms of sickness are facts. They are real. But they have no right to touch you if you walk in God's promise of divine health. Therefore some say that the symptoms you feel/see are lying, because they oppose scripture on healing.

By standing in faith and not doubting in God's Word, sickness must flee. One of the problems for man is that we are very sense oriented: we feel and we see, etc. So when we have sniffles, instead of standing in faith and not doubting, we often times say "uh oh, I'm coming down with something." Then we remember it has no place on us. Then we say "I hope it doesn't get worse." Wavering. Doubt.

There are many (heated) discussions also about whether a person walking in faith could then reach for the cold medicine. Is that doubt? I say no, not in and of itself. Should one go to a doctor? Is that doubt? I say not doubt, go to the doctor if necessary -- just remember the doctor isn't what is healing you, God is; the doctor/medicine will simply give some relief until the healing is fully manifest.

So what is the "toxic-wof variety?" Well, there are those who will deny that sickness has touched them. They will get a cut and will shun medication and just claim Jesus' healing. The cut will get infected. They shun medicine and doctors and rely on Jesus -- but in reality they have doubt. They just don't want to show it to those who might be watching (or they are caught in a lie to themselves). The infection gets worse. They are a little worried, but they stand on (what they call) "faith." The infection travels their bloodstream and they die. Extreme, but you get the point.

Ok, let's see how that goes over with the gang.

 

[splat]

Thank you, ABlessedMan, for that reply and your thoughts.

In fact you do raise a good point in how we should view "reaching for the medicine cabinet".

Interesting also your comment about the "toxic WOF variety" which indicates to me that you don't agree wholeheartedly with some of the practices (or theory?) of some WOF teachers.

The question, for me I guess, is whether the symptoms themselves are a lie? or whether its contrary emotions arising from those symptoms are the lie? If not the former then I can see that justifying "reaching for the medicine cabinet" would be alot easier.

Any further thoughts, anyone, on this???

Blessings
Splat

 

[gennaoanothen]

Don't believe I have ever heard the term "lying symptoms" used.
I would think a person using the term "lying symptoms" would be boardiring or have entered into Christian science, methyphiscal, and or mind science.
as they would be the groups that would deny the reality of symptoms.
Example P. Quimby taught that sickness was just an illusion, and healing is obtained by removing the illusion, he knew that Christians did not believe, his teachings, even accused the clerics and doctors of creating that illusion (of sickness) within the minds of people.

So to answer your question "Word Faith" does not deny a symptom of sickness, or the reality of having a sickness. In order to be healed from anything, you have to have that sickness (the reality of it), and you have an elder or another Christian of faith, lay hands on you and pray, in Jesus Name for the sickness (symptom)to be removed.

We place our faith in Jesus, in the Name of Jesus, in Fathers Word (James 5:14), with an expectation of being healed.

Let us face the facts, Jesus prayed for and healed folks that were sick.
James 5:14 states "is any sick amoung you", not "does anyone got lying symptoms", call for the elders. LOL

Do not believe I would use the term "lying symptoms" myself.
I would prefer to command the sickness (symptoms) out of me in Jesus Name, and thank the Lord that I am healed, and stand in that faith untill the healing was completly manifested, because Fathers Word does state we shall pray for the sick and they shall be healed, not might be healed.
and with my mouth I would declare Fathers Word which is in my heart, and my belief, instead of declaring woe is me I am sick, because if a person runs around constantly confessing I am sick, then they have no expectation of being healed.

I will disagree with my friend ABM and his term "toxic wof",
To me the term "toxic" would be used by those that don't have faith.
and ABM I know where you borrowed the "toxic" from (that person lacks faith).
To rely soley and completly in Jesus and Fathers Word, is only toxic to the world (unbelievers and doubters), In the Kingdom of God to rely completly in Jesus and Fathers Word, is walking on the water, and mountain moving faith.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Thank you, ABlessedMan, for that reply and your thoughts.

In fact you do raise a good point in how we should view "reaching for the medicine cabinet".

There is nothing wrong with physical help as long as that does not become your source. Even when a simple asprin helps relieve a headache, it is because the Lord made us react to the medicine. But He never intended that the medicine would be our source. Sort of like Paul telling Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach issues.

Interesting also your comment about the "toxic WOF variety" which indicates to me that you don't agree wholeheartedly with some of the practices (or theory?) of some WOF teachers.

I don't ascribe the "toxic" label to the more well known WoF teachers. Some of these use the term "lying symptoms." This term is not the problem, it is the resultant meaning and requirements that will get me going. If anyone tells you that physical helps are a lack of faith then you are crossing the toxic line. On the other hand, if someone tells you not to be quick to reach for the physical helps, then they are telling you to be aware of your faith. If you easily reach for the asprin BEFORE you think about the Lord's healing touch, then you know your source (asprin). If you think of God's healing power first, then there is your source. I pray the meaning of my words are coming through.

The question, for me I guess, is whether the symptoms themselves are a lie? or whether its contrary emotions arising from those symptoms are the lie? If not the former then I can see that justifying "reaching for the medicine cabinet" would be alot easier.

Good way of putting it. If reaching for the helps needs justification, then your source is misplaced. But it will take a building of your faith, not simply a stronger will. I've known many who had a strong will to "believe" in the Lord and not take medicinal help -- and those many stayed in pain or worse for a long time. I've known many who had strong faith and did not regularly reach for helps, and their symptoms would disappear in faith quickly.

Lying symptoms are simply the difference between the facts of the symptoms versus the truth of Jesus' healing power. Truth wins. Jesus healing power needs no help from medicine. But our unbelief that causes us to waiver -- even if we fail to acknowledge our unbelief -- will keep us in the wilderness. Build the faith. Study the word. Get it into your heart so that when a symptom comes on you your first thought, your first move, your first impulse is to demand that it leave, is to call on the Word's promise. This will take time to build your faith, to build your focus.

Kenneth Copeland puts it this way:

If God’s Word about healing is abundantly stored in your heart, then when symptoms of sickness come, you’ll begin resisting those symptoms and speaking faith. Almost without thinking about it, you’ll say, “Oh, no you don’t devil. You’re not putting that sickness on me. I’m the healed of the Lord. Jesus paid the price for me to be well and I intend to be well so you just take your symptoms and get out of here!”
​

I don't want to reach for the medicine always. But I don't want to remain in symptoms when they can be relieved if my faith is not strong enough, if my unbelief is hindering me. I'm not perfect. Some days are worse than others where this is concerned. Some days I am strong in faith. It is a constant battle against the enemy, against the curse and against the carnal nature of this world. Put on the armor of God daily. Stay in the ?Word. Know your promises.

 

[tturt]

One example (to me) is from Luke 13 where the account of a woman who had been sick for 18 years was healed. The cause of her sickness - v. 16 "And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?" v 11 explains how he had done that - with a spirit of infirmity. Once she was delivered, she was healed. v. 11 she was "...was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself." When Yeshua laid hands on her, she was healed and stood up straight (v 13). Her physical symptoms lasted 18 years yet her problem wasn't physical. Of course, not everyone whose sick needs deliverance imo.

Since every good thing comes from Yahweh (James 1), if I pray and asks Him to heal me of a headache and take a med to do the same, I trust Him to help me anyway He selects.

 

[pdudgeon]

i've also never heard of the term 'lying symptoms' but i had them once!

i had been suffering with what i think was a bone problem in the sole of my left foot. Our church had a monthly prayer service at the time that i usually attended. when they asked if anyone needed healing i went up. two ministers laid hands on my foot, prayed, and healed it. when i went back to my seat i got a couple of pains in that same foot (the lying symptoms) but i rebuked them in Jesus' name and claimed my healing and they went away never to return.

and as for the 'toxic WOF', i think ABM picked up that derogatory term from his friends at Carm, because we don't use it here at CF.

 

[Living in the Light]

I definitely believe that if a person is consistently doing unrighteous deeds such as lying, hurting others, and not living in a Spirit of love and holiness, it is bound to manifest itself in physical ailments. Especially if a person is chronically afficted on a regular basis. I'm not speaking of an occasional cold or other condition. Also, I believe that one's belief system factors into the illness. "As a man thinketh, so he is." (paraphrased)

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

i've also never heard of the term 'lying symptoms' but i had them once!

i had been suffering with what i think was a bone problem in the sole of my left foot. Our church had a monthly prayer service at the time that i usually attended. when they asked if anyone needed healing i went up. two ministers laid hands on my foot, prayed, and healed it. when i went back to my seat i got a couple of pains in that same foot (the lying symptoms) but i rebuked them in Jesus' name and claimed my healing and they went away never to return.

Exactly. The facts said pain, but the truth said Jesus heals.

The term was used quite often by Kenneth E Hagin in the hey day of WoF, and carried on by people who studied under him.

and as for the 'toxic WOF', i think ABM picked up that derogatory term from his friends at Carm, because we don't use it here at CF.

Well there is one individual on carm (bc) that people give credit to coining the phrase, but I remember it being used for the whole church years ago. I was first exposed to this phrase in a book by Chuck Colson called "Toxic Faith" in the mid eighties (the book is probably from the 70's and seems to be out of print now), and it was about problems in the church as a whole at the time. I think the term is useful in ANY denomination when a doctrine is taken too far into extremes and it becomes less than biblical in its application.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I definitely believe that if a person is consistently doing unrighteous deeds such as lying, hurting others, and not living in a Spirit of love and holiness, it is bound to manifest itself in physical ailments. Especially if a person is chronically afficted on a regular basis. I'm not speaking of an occasional cold or other condition. Also, I believe that one's belief system factors into the illness. "As a man thinketh, so he is." (paraphrased)

So true, so true. And I would also lump the occasional cold in there as well. Jesus walked this earth as a man, and never got sick. He walked in faith and had no doubt. And He told us to be like Him.

I agree that one who walks in unrighteousness will have issues. They have turned from the blessing and chose to walk in the curse. Sickness is in the curse. Poverty is in the curse. There is no peace nor is there joy in the curse.

 

[gennaoanothen]

I don't ascribe the "toxic" label to the more well known WoF teachers. Some of these use the term "lying symptoms." This term is not the problem, it is the resultant meaning and requirements that will get me going. If anyone tells you that physical helps are a lack of faith then you are crossing the toxic line. On the other hand, if someone tells you not to be quick to reach for the physical helps, then they are telling you to be aware of your faith. If you easily reach for the asprin BEFORE you think about the Lord's healing touch, then you know your source (asprin). If you think of God's healing power first, then there is your source. I pray the meaning of my words are coming through.


.

I understand what you have said brother.

I believe each of us should know where we are in our own faith level, usually the level has increased as we have delt with these battles, and personally seen the Lord's deliverance.

If a person is unsure, then they should see a doctor, if needed, we in RHEMA word faith are not anti-doctors, I have a daughter who is a nurse, myself I would prefer to reach for the Word.

I would never encourage a lack of medical treatment for a person that is incapale of making there own faith decisions (example a child), I would suggest prayer first though, Because I truly believe the Lord heals and healing is Fathers Will.


blessings

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I understand what you have said brother.

I believe each of us should know where we are in our own faith level, usually the level has increased as we have delt with these battles, and personally seen the Lord's deliverance.

If a person is unsure, then they should see a doctor, if needed, we in RHEMA word faith are not anti-doctors, I have a daughter who is a nurse, myself I would prefer to reach for the Word.

I would never encourage a lack of medical treatment for a person that is incapale of making there own faith decisions (example a child), I would suggest prayer first though, Because I truly believe the Lord heals and healing is Fathers Will.


blessings

Amen!! Know your source, and reaching for prayer first (if your spirit truly reaches here first) is showing that the Lord is your source.

And you make a very good point: as our faith increases and our unbelief decreases the battles are won quicker and more easily. When we see such results we know that we are on the right path. If the results take a long time, stay on the Word, stay in faith, keep pressing in -- but get some help believing that God will also use the doctor or the medicine in your situation.

I've been on both sides of the "doctor" issue. Depends upon the situation. One of my favorite testimonies (I'm sure I've given it here at CF, but here goes again) is this:

We got a call from my father-in-law a little before midnight one night. He asked for help. We went to his house. My wife and I agreed that whatever we found we would not speak the sickness, but that ultimately it would be up to my father-in-law what path he would want to take.

We walked in the door and it was apparent immediately that he had had a mild stroke. We tried to help him up, but his left side was numb and not fully responsive. He could not walk -- left leg would not support him -- nor could he lift his left arm.

We knew what this was in the natural. He knew what this was too. None of us spoke it. We prayed with him and for him. We commanded his body to return to full use.

Then we asked him what he wanted to do, if he wanted to go the hospital to be checked out. He said no, the Lord is His healer. So we agreed in prayer that his body would return to full use and that what touched him had to go. We helped him to move to his bedroom and lie down. We put on a Gloria Copeland healing tape. He lay there until sleep came listening to healing scripture.

When he woke the next day he was fully restored. He got out of bed and could walk normally.

Within a couple days unbelief began to seep in. I recognized it and chided him about it. Told him to get back on the Word and cast the devil's lying words out. But he was latching on to some fearful words from others, and decided that he should go and get checked out. Given his unbelief, I agreed and took him to the hospital.

They did a scan and found that indeed he had a minor stroke. His left arm and hand became slightly numb while there. They wanted to admit him, but he refused. I'm not sure if it was more out of fear of being in the hospital or if he began to grab ahold of his faith again. Either way, he went home. But he was left with a slight numbness in this left forearm and hand.

It remains slightly even today, such that he can not play the guitar the way that he could before the incident. No other issues have hit him since -- that was 10 years ago. He has learned and grasps hold of his healing through faith.

He is currently 83 years old. He had a heart attack at 59; a stroke at 73. He takes NO prescription medicines. He has a very hearty appetite. a few years ago at 80 he single-handedly built a shed -- 2x6 wood frame, wood siding -- with a footprint of 10' x 17' and a shingle roof -- windows et. al. Incredible.

 

[Alive_Again]

The first step is to get the revelation that Jesus paid for your healing at the cross. You have to hear this in your spirit. The truth does not always spring forth in full fruit in our hearts, but many times it gradually dawns. Begin to meditate on this and when you sense some life springing forth, see it as a seed that is the beginning of your miracle or healing.

If you have the revelation in your heart that the Word of God is your final authority, then you know that the planting of the seed of the Word of God in your heart will bring forth a harvest. If you're unsure about the certainty of the Word of God, I'd meditate on that first, as well as God's faithfulness. Let Him minister this to you.

Many times people (we) get sick because we don't live our lives in accordance with what the Word says to do. We don't spend time in the Word, or we don't sit before Him, worshipping Him and serving Him with gladness of heart. We might pick up a complaining spirit, or speak in unrighteous judgment about your pastor or another person; maybe you start knocking someone in authority (like the president), or you assent to what is said by another (about the president). You might speak evil things over your own body, or are disobedient to parents, someone else might be speaking evil things over you (curses), you might not wear your armor, or don't speak forth the Word out loud.

There's a hundred ways to let the enemy into your life to afflict you, all by permission since you might have let the door in. I was thinking about this recently on another thread and it occurred to me that it is very easy to open the door to oppression. How do we absolutely know if we have or not?

Soon I had a dream where I had been pulled over by the cops for not wearing my seatbelt. They were on foot and they were about to cite me. One officer walked over to my friend and immediately started to beat him. He took off running and I was their alone with the other cop. The other one gave me a hateful look and then started to tell me what he was going to do to me. I said: "In the name of Jesus!!! You will not.... and he vanished away. Even if I deserved to be cited, he had no authority over me for anything else and as soon as I realized this, I rebuked him and he vanished like the demonic spirit that he was!

We might open the door to the enemy, but if we open our hearts to God with true repentance, the enemy's "right" to afflict is over! Use the name of Jesus over spirits of infirmity! Speak over your own body! Tell it to be whole! Don't mess around! Break every curse off of your life in Jesus' name. Say: "No weapon formed against me will prosper and my righteousness is of the Lord". Is 54

Many times the enemy accompanies a physical affliction. That's ok. Get rid of him and then let God minister healing to you. Renounce any sinful behaviors out loud!

If you don't have the promise of God in your spirit, start meditating on the Word (Ps 1) and let God begin to minister healing to your withered "leaves". Speak the Word out loud! Have patience because if you're not developed in your faith, this promise might take a little longer to bear the ultimate restorative fruit, but your restoration begins the moment you line up with the will of God and His Word. Our fruit usually indicates our soundness, so make sure your inner man is A-OK with God.

Ask God if you've overlooked anything He's prompted you to do and then purpose to do it immediately (if possible). Ask Him if you haven't forgiven anyone, or spoke something evil (contrary to the Word) over someone and the first face you see, forgive them out loud! Speak a blessing over them! Plead the blood!

I pray this prayer: "God where I am right now and with what faith I have, I ask for an innoculation of your healing Word through every cell of my body in Jesus' name. Thank you in advance! Then start praising the Lord and stop talking about it unless you're going to acknowledge what He's working right now. Let the occasion to speak be the occasion to strengthen this by speaking your faith out loud and hold fast your confession of faith without wavering. If you can believe that He'll speed up your healing first, let that be your starting place and be glad for it. (Don't stop taking any medications unless He tells you clearly in your spirit.)

God told Kenneth Hagin that if you stayed filled with the Spirit, the manifestation of healing would be greatly increased, so get serious with it!

Be blessed! I'm listening to this too!