Is abortion better than the alternative?

Antoninus Verus · Mar 6, 2005

kedaman said:
This debate is getting silly. Our society (and then I mean my country) assures that people don't have to starve, but its not 100% effective. That doesn't mean those who starve have the right to steal other people's food.

Doesnt it? I know that if I were living on the streets and had no money that my morales about stealing food would get REAL flexible REAL fast.

Tawny · Mar 6, 2005

Carrying on from what Lokisdottir said, would you judge someone or think less of them if they had an abortion in the past. For instance, if they had left a bad abusive relationship and found out they were pregnant and then had an abortion. How would you think of them?

lonnienord · Mar 6, 2005

making murder legal because people are going to do it anyway doesn't make any sense to me.

lonnienord · Mar 6, 2005

tawny said:
Carrying on from what Lokisdottir vbmenu_register("postmenu_14122069", true); said, would you judge someone or think less of them if they had an abortion in the past. For instance, if they had left a bad abusive relationship and found out they were pregnant and then had an abortion. How would you think of them?

i would urge them to go to confession then i would treat them the same as i would treat any other forgiven sinner -- myself included. GOD is Great and HIS mercy is fantastic!!

if they believed their abortion was legit and not sinful i would carefully disagree with them, pray for them and treat them the same as any other sinner. They are children of GOD and in need of prayer so i pray for them

all for JESUS!!
lonnie

Antoninus Verus · Mar 6, 2005

lonnienord said:
making murder legal because people are going to do it anyway doesn't make any sense to me.

Well if you took the time to actually READ the post you might understand. I have to disagree that it is murder first off. But would you rather have abortion be legal and have people performing it in safe, healthy, clinical environments with trained and knowleageable staff......or would you rather have people do them in the back of bars with Guido the Black Alley Abortion Doctor who's only qualification is that he used to be a butcher back in Italy and who's idea of steralization is dipping his "tools" in alchahol. Option A sounds ALOT better to me.

tawny said:
Carrying on from what Lokisdottir said, would you judge someone or think less of them if they had an abortion in the past. For instance, if they had left a bad abusive relationship and found out they were pregnant and then had an abortion. How would you think of them?

Depends on the reason. If they'd got pregnant from being stupid and got an abortion, I wouldnt like it and I might think a little less of them. But if it was for a valid reason then I would actually think more highly of them because of the strength it takes to do something like that especially if you dont want to.

Chloe Williams · Mar 6, 2005

Lokisdottir said:
Call me selfish, but I'm not willing to go through nine months of pregnancy, many hours of labor, and damage to certain beloved parts of my anatomy for the sake of a child I'll only see for a moment before it's thrown into foster care, where it may or may not be adopted, and may or may not end up miserable.

Wait, now you care if your child would end up miserable? Babies can feel abortion and it does make them more than miserable, so if you don't care about your baby before it is born, why do you care after? And I personally don't see pregnancy and childbirth as a huge price to pay so a baby has a chance at life.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

Antoninus Verus · Mar 6, 2005

Chloe Williams said:
And I personally don't see pregnancy and childbirth as a huge price to pay so a baby has a chance at life.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

Its a huge price to pay when that childbirth may be fatal to the mother or may cause her years of emotional torment resulting in the poor care of the child

Tawny · Mar 6, 2005

Chloe Williams said:
Wait, now you care if your child would end up miserable? Babies can feel abortion and it does make them more than miserable, so if you don't care about your baby before it is born, why do you care after? And I personally don't see pregnancy and childbirth as a huge price to pay so a baby has a chance at life.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

With all due respect to you. There speaks a fourteen year old who has NEVER experienced childbirth. Its not like one cough and whoopee here is a baby. Its called Labour for a reason!

Rae · Mar 6, 2005

It's also a huge price to pay if you want the baby born healthy, too, given that Congress is considering slashing Medicaid funding. If I hadn't had Medicaid, I wouldn't have been able to have any medical care during my pregnancy. An abortion is far less expensive in that case.

Chloe Williams · Mar 6, 2005

tawny said:
Carrying on from what Lokisdottir said, would you judge someone or think less of them if they had an abortion in the past. For instance, if they had left a bad abusive relationship and found out they were pregnant and then had an abortion. How would you think of them?

I wouldn't treat them any different than anyone else (i.e. being mean or calling them dirty names ect.). I would probably tell them what I think of abortion and why I think it is wrong.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

Electra · Mar 6, 2005

tawny said:
Carrying on from what Lokisdottir said, would you judge someone or think less of them if they had an abortion in the past. For instance, if they had left a bad abusive relationship and found out they were pregnant and then had an abortion. How would you think of them?

Of course not.

The person has to do what is best for her - I would hope that person is alright, and happy to have gone out of the abusive relationship. Many women never do.

Chloe Williams · Mar 6, 2005

tawny said:
With all due respect to you. There speaks a fourteen year old who has NEVER experienced childbirth. Its not like one cough and whoopee here is a baby. Its called Labour for a reason!

I know that I have never experienced labor, but I do also understand that an average first time mother's labor can last up to 20 hours and that pre-labor(I don't think that is the medical term, but I can't remeber what it is right off hand) can last for days or even a week. But like I said, that doesn't seem like a price that is too high for a human life.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

merryheart · Mar 6, 2005

I wish that the whole argument about abortion had not made so many become hard hearted about what is really happening. Creation of life is an expression of love. Extinction of that life is death and destruction of what is good. I know several women who have had abortions, and to their dismay were never able to conceive again. Many of these are among the loudest in the attempt to make abortion illegal again - they have made their personal mistake into a project - they felt lied to and they never knew how they would grieve over the loss of that child. I know women who have been raped and born and loved a child. This is a beautiful kind of love. I recommend it to any who can accept it.

I am not for allowing the courts decide when an abortion is appropriate - but I am totally against making it seem easy, desirable, or an obvious best choice. It is an ugly choice, fraught with terrible consequences.

Tawny · Mar 6, 2005

merryheart said:
I am not for allowing the courts decide when an abortion is appropriate - but I am totally against making it seem easy, desirable, or an obvious best choice. It is an ugly choice, fraught with terrible consequences.

I am with you on the court thing, also you are right it is a very very difficult decision to take, one that is agonised over for ages. It is my personal opinion that unless a person is in the situation where the decision is even thought of, let alone taken they have no right to judge.

Lokisdottir · Mar 6, 2005

Chloe Williams said:
Wait, now you care if your child would end up miserable? Babies can feel abortion and it does make them more than miserable, so if you don't care about your baby before it is born, why do you care after? And I personally don't see pregnancy and childbirth as a huge price to pay so a baby has a chance at life.

I absolutely would care.

To me, a first-trimester embryo/fetus is not a person. It has no brain activity. Even if it can feel pain, it doesn't have a mind to comprehend it.

But by the time it is born, it has developed a mind and emotions... in other words, it is a person. And I care about people.

So yes, I would be concerned about whether or not the child would end up leading a miserable life, being tossed about in foster care. And I'm also concerned about the other children being tossed about in foster care -- the ones who would have a more difficult time finding a permanent home if I were to bring another child into existence.

merryheart · Mar 6, 2005

Lokisdottir said:
To me, a first-trimester embryo/fetus is not a person. It has no brain activity. Even if it can feel pain, it doesn't have a mind to comprehend it.

To me, a baby is a person very soon after conception - I have been pregnant 4 times - with 3 live births and one miscarriage, and I 'knew' my children before they were born. I understand that my 'knowing' doesn't constitute scientific proof, and I don't offer it as such - but the discerning mother can sense the developing person very soon.

Chloe Williams · Mar 6, 2005

Lokisdottir said:
I absolutely would care.

To me, a first-trimester embryo/fetus is not a person. It has no brain activity. Even if it can feel pain, it doesn't have a mind to comprehend it.

But by the time it is born, it has developed a mind and emotions... in other words, it is a person. And I care about people.

So yes, I would be concerned about whether or not the child would end up leading a miserable life, being tossed about in foster care. And I'm also concerned about the other children being tossed about in foster care -- the ones who would have a more difficult time finding a permanent home if I were to bring another child into existence.

Actually, babies do have brain activity....usually around 6 weeks after conception. So they can feel and comprehend pain.

And if you would care about this child, why did you say in one of your previous posts that if you did have a child it would end up neglected and unhappy? If you really cared about the child once it was born, how would you be able to neglect it?

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

Lokisdottir · Mar 6, 2005

Chloe Williams said:
And if you would care about this child, why did you say in one of your previous posts that if you did have a child it would end up neglected and unhappy? If you really cared about the child once it was born, how would you be able to neglect it?

I would care about it, but I would not love it.

I wouldn't purposely neglect it, but like I said, I have no maternal instincts. I am easily distracted, and I greatly value my alone time, and my sleep. 2 am feedings? Forget it. Diaper changes? Ick.

Cats are more than enough responsibility for me.

morningstar2651 · Mar 6, 2005

Secular Reasoning
Premesis:
1. Murder is considered morally wrong in my culture.
2. One murder is worse than zero murders, and two murders are worse than one.
3. Not attempting to save a life (if you have the capability) is wrong and can be likened to murder.
4. Saving a life is good.
5. If a mother's life is endangered by her pregnancy and an abortion can save her life, then not having an abortion results in 2 murders.
6. If a mother's life is endangered by her pregnancy and an abortion can save her life, then having an abortion results in 1 murder and 1 life saved.
Conclusion
Therefore, if a mother's life is endangered by her pregnancy and an abortion can save her life, then an an abortion is better than the alternative (1 death is better than 2, 1 saved life is good).

Biblical Argument (for Christians)
1. If the bible is divinly inspired, then Hos.9:16, Hos.13:16, Dt.20:16, Jos.10:40, & Ex.12:30 are divinely inspired.
2. The Bible is divinly inspired.
Conclusion:
Therefore, Hos.9:16, Hos.13:16, Dt.20:16, Jos.10:40, & Ex.12:30 are divinely inspired.

merryheart · Mar 6, 2005

Lokisdottir - I have been noticing that your views on motherhood are quite common and popular among young women. I have heard my 2 daughters and their friends having conversations with a lot of pieces common to your thoughts. I found a www site that espouses it. It seems like a fad, as much as anything. I am sorry, but it seems awfully sad to me. I believe that the best in life is often purchased through the greatest sacrifice.

http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/abortion/abortops.html

Is abortion better than the alternative?

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