Is abortion better than the alternative?

Antoninus Verus · Mar 13, 2005

If new laws were put into place that strictly forbade abortion, I cant think of why a doctor would voluntarily perform the surgery unless he was paid ALOT of money. While it doesnt violate the Hippocratic Oath, its still illegal and no doctor wants to go to jail. He can kiss his liscense goodbye because he is NEVER setting foot in a hospital to work again if he goes to jail.

Even if there were doctors that perform abortions for large cash exchanges, that would still create a black market. One that law enforcement would have to spend time and money on curbing. Time and money that can be far better used in some other fashion.

Banning abortion totally sounds like a good idea on paper, but in practice I think its a horrible mistake. It would give rise to a myriad of other expensive and time consuming problems.

Chloe Williams said:
And just because you aren't a Christian, doesn't mean you can't change.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

What if you dont WANT to change?

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

the way i see it...

most people on this forum agree that abortion shouldnt really be for convience.

however...some think that ''rape-babies'' or babies who put risk to the mother, should be aborted.

others think that abortion should never be an option.

so...we see what we agree with...now what?

i dont agree with aborting "rape-babies" what did they do to deserve death? and a horrible painful death at that if done in later term of the pregnancy.

and often babies who doctors say could be a risk to the mother and the parents refuse to have an abortion...the babies continue in the pregnancy and they're okay.

another thing that doctors sometimes do is in cases of multiple births such as twins, triplets, etc is to advise the mother to choose to keep one, or two, and they suck the life out of the other. or in some cases, the mother will say ''i dont want 2 babies, just one'' and then abort one.

the doctors often do an ultrasound and then decide which baby (or babies) to keep and which one(s) to kill.

now that...i definetly do NOT agree with

and what about abortion survivors? they exist as well. and often if the abortion is botched and the baby survives the doctor used to kill the baby or allow it to die of exposure, now some new laws make it so doctors instead rush it to the NICU. but maybe infanticide still happens, not sure, and you never know.

but what of the child? ''you were supposed to be aborted. you're not supposed to be alive''

this is one of MANY ethical concerns with abortion.

i've read several books about abortion and the ethical concerns, etc. sorta gives the backdoor look on abortion...pretty disturbing.

Chloe Williams · Mar 13, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
What if you dont WANT to change?

I never said anyone wanted to change, I just said that it is possible for some people to change over time.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

ok, this is the website with the video Silent Scream. it shows an ultrasound during a 12 week abortion.

it was made a while ago, however this method of abortion is still used.

parts 2-4 are especially important. part 2 has a doctor demonstrating how the abortion is done, part 3 has the video with a doctor explaining what is happening, and part 4 gives some statistics of abortion.

this video, again, is a bit outdated. but the facts are still there.

i challenge you to watch it, it sort of puts a spin on things.

http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm

Antoninus Verus · Mar 13, 2005

and a horrible painful death at that if done in later term of the pregnancy.

How do you know that?

and often babies who doctors say could be a risk to the mother and the parents refuse to have an abortion...the babies continue in the pregnancy and they're okay.

That does happen sometimes and its good that it does. And I will agree that pregnancy deaths, especially with todays level of technology and medicine, are rare. BUT, its those rare cases where I think abortion should be allowed. Yeah its all nice and fine to accept that kind of risk....untill your the one the doctor is talking to about it. What do you say to a woman who's life is in danger because of pregnancy and abortion is illegal? "Sorry, deal with it." What do you say to her husband? Her family? "Too bad."? And I know what your going to say next "Well what about the babies!?" What about them? I think its more of a tradgedy to destroy a productive human life than one that hasnt started yet. Im not saying that killing is right, Im saying that sometimes its preferable to the possible outcome. You have to choose between the lesser of two evils, there is no "right" choice here. And I believe its more of a shame to outright forbid something that could potentially help alot of people.

ok, this is the website with the video Silent Scream. it shows an ultrasound during a 12 week abortion.

Those videos were...un-moving. All they had was Nerdy McGee talking untill about the third one and then they had a few pictures of a mangled fetus.....maybe Im a cynic....but that doesnt convince me. As someone who has actually had to see a family member try and choose between abortion and her own death through pregnancy, I firmly believe abortion should be avalible as a last resort for potentially life threatning pregnancies and victims of sexual assault. In SOME cases where the mother cannot properly care for the child because of lack of money, then...ok, considering the alternative is probably going to be my having to pay for it when the kid turns to crime because he has no money and gets sent to jail for 20 years for armed robbery. Im not saying all kids born to parents with little money turn into criminals, there are alot of great people out here and this is not a very wealthy part of town.

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
How do you know that?

That does happen sometimes and its good that it does. And I will agree that pregnancy deaths, especially with todays level of technology and medicine, are rare. BUT, its those rare cases where I think abortion should be allowed. Yeah its all nice and fine to accept that kind of risk....untill your the one the doctor is talking to about it. What do you say to a woman who's life is in danger because of pregnancy and abortion is illegal? "Sorry, deal with it." What do you say to her husband? Her family? "Too bad."? And I know what your going to say next "Well what about the babies!?" What about them? I think its more of a tradgedy to destroy a productive human life than one that hasnt started yet. Im not saying that killing is right, Im saying that sometimes its preferable to the possible outcome. You have to choose between the lesser of two evils, there is no "right" choice here. And I believe its more of a shame to outright forbid something that could potentially help alot of people.

Those videos were...un-moving. All they had was Nerdy McGee talking untill about the third one and then they had a few pictures of a mangled fetus.....maybe Im a cynic....but that doesnt convince me. As someone who has actually had to see a family member try and choose between abortion and her own death through pregnancy, I firmly believe abortion should be avalible as a last resort for potentially life threatning pregnancies and victims of sexual assault. In SOME cases where the mother cannot properly care for the child because of lack of money, then...ok, considering the alternative is probably going to be my having to pay for it when the kid turns to crime because he has no money and gets sent to jail for 20 years for armed robbery. Im not saying all kids born to parents with little money turn into criminals, there are alot of great people out here and this is not a very wealthy part of town.

i know the movie was a little over-done drama wise and that guy was a nerd.

i didnt pay attention to that part of it.

and ur saying that the fact that a baby is darting away from the abortion tools and its heart beat speeding up doesnt mean anything? or that the baby being systematically ripped and crushed apart piece by piece isnt painful?

unborn babies can feel pain by 8 weeks or earlier. that abortion was done around 11 or 12 weeks.

and did you see the pictures of aborted babies on section 4?

those babies looked like they were ready to be born...but they werent. i found it a bit disturbing.

do you know how the different methods of abortion are done? saline abortions act like napalm on the baby...and other methods rip and crush the baby to pieces.

saline abortions can take up to an hour or more for the baby to die. and ur saying that baby doesnt feel pain in the meantime?

i know the video was a bit corny...but i was hoping you could look past that and look at the facts instead. i thought you would..but maybe i was wrong.

Antoninus Verus · Mar 13, 2005

and ur saying that the fact that a baby is darting away from the abortion tools and its heart beat speeding up doesnt mean anything? or that the baby being systematically ripped and crushed apart piece by piece isnt painful?

Natural reactions doesnt mean sensations of pain. And how could you see anything in that ultrasound? I couldnt make out ANYTHING.

I just hold the life of a mother above the life of her child. I am for a moderate restriction and regulation of abortion, not for a total ban, not for a total allowance.

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Natural reactions doesnt mean sensations of pain. And how could you see anything in that ultrasound? I couldnt make out ANYTHING.

I just hold the life of a mother above the life of her child. I am for a moderate restriction and regulation of abortion, not for a total ban, not for a total allowance.

it's been proven the unborn child can feel pain by 8 weeks if not earlier...that is why presently a law is trying to be passed requiring abortion clinics to tell the patients what will be happening to the unborn child, the risks, and the fact that they will require anesthesia for the unborn child as well as the mother.

and i still dont think we have the right to put one person above another.

Antoninus Verus · Mar 13, 2005

gallykid08 said:
that is why presently a law is trying to be passed requiring abortion clinics to tell the patients what will be happening to the unborn child, the risks, and the fact that they will require anesthesia for the unborn child as well as the mother.

and i still dont think we have the right to put one person above another.

Allright, fine, tell patients what the kid will go through. Just dont ban it.

And why dont we have that right? We do it all the time

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

part of me thinks that if people become more aware what abortion does exactly it many be banned...but who knows...

and when exactly do we choose who to let live and let die? and does that mean we should just sit back and let it happen?

Seeking... · Mar 13, 2005

Chloe Williams said:
I would appreciate it if you would quit telling me what I know and don't know about the decisions I would make. I think I know myself better than you do.

I don't assume to know you or what actions you would take. I have merely suggested that you cannot be sure of what you would do in a situation completely unfamiliar to you. Many woman have changed their minds after encountering previously uncomprehensible obstacles.

Chloe Williams said:
Just because the baby hasn't had the opportunity to treasure life outside the womb, doesn't mean killing it isn't a punishment. I would concider not having the opportunity to treasure life outside the womb a punishment.

It is your right to have that opinion. I do not agree and think it involves too many assumptions.

Seeking... · Mar 13, 2005

StammerA said:
You would be taking the chance for that HUMAN BEING, no matter the size, to serve our Loving God.
The ultimate gift that we have been given is freedom of Choice by God himself. That freedom of choice was NOT intended to play the role of God, that FREEDOM of choice was to choose to Love and Accept Christ as our personal Savior Or NOT TO.
You would be SNATCHING away the opportunity for that person to Love,Worship, PRAISE and Serve Christ the Lord. You would in a sense be helping Satan (NOT realizing it,though) Because that is something that pleases Satan the most..... if he could just TAKE OUT ONE more Child of God. That would be JUST one less bothersome "christian" who could lead someone to God, through Jesus Christ.

I could have been one of the humans that would have been aborted, had it been legal just a few years before it actually became legal. And I KNOW, as I've stated in different postings, that because of my life, and a child that God Blessed me with, that has passed.....I was told by three people who accepted Christ because of my "Summer Faith's" life. If I hadn't given birth to her (because of her anomolies) those three people would not have accepted Christ.

Let me clarify a few things.
I am not a Christian so I do not consider denying an unborn child the opportunity to worship your savior as a punishment. My personal beliefs don't allow that I or a child could "lead" someone to faith - faith is a personal journey that should be marked by self-discovery and study. I believe God gave me dominion over my own body and I cannot "play" God by merely exercising rights He gave me.

I am also not talking about abortion in general. I have never had an abortion and cannot imagine having one unless conception was not consensual or unless my life was in immediate danger by continuing the pregnancy. Quite honestly a child resulting from a non-consensual act would not have a chance to survive within me. Either I would have an abortion or I would kill myself. So in my situation the choice is one death or two. I am selfishly unwilling to undergo 9 months of what would be torture for me to aid in the gestation of a child whoose conception was forced upon me. If I was forced to continue carrying such a child - that would be society reinforcing the rapist who decreed I had no value, no power and no right to determine the use of my body & I would have no desire to continue living in such a society.

It doesn't matter what you say about abortion or the baby. I have been to all the websites and studied abortion. I have debated the subject in school when I was younger and made sure to look at all available information. I know the different types and how they are performed. Yes it is sad, and it is gruesome - it is also sometimes neccesary.

The realistic way to address abortion is to try to miminize the abortions that are the result of birth control failure or lack of use of birth control. There will always be the need for some abortions - whether you agree with the reasons or not. Not every women holds your beliefs - not every woman could be educated into sharing your beliefs. I couldn't.

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

murder is never necassary. and never should be.

Chloe Williams · Mar 13, 2005

gallykid08 said:
murder is never necassary. and never should be.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

Antoninus Verus · Mar 13, 2005

gallykid08 said:
murder is never necassary. and never should be.

So if a man is beating you around in a dark alley, groping you, and apparently with the full intention of raping and then killing you....your telling me you wouldnt do your damndest to kill him FIRST?

Marek · Mar 13, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
So if a man is beating you around in a dark alley, groping you, and apparently with the full intention of raping and then killing you....your telling me you wouldnt do your damndest to kill him FIRST?

You are confused. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being. Killing in self-defense is not illegal.

Seeking... · Mar 13, 2005

gallykid08 said:
murder is never necassary. and never should be.

That would explain why murder is illegal and why abortion is not murder.

Marek · Mar 13, 2005

Seeking... said:
That would explain why murder is illegal and why abortion is not murder.

Only very, very few abortions are necessary. The argument is that those abortions that are not completely necessary should be considered as murder.

gallykid08 · Mar 13, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
So if a man is beating you around in a dark alley, groping you, and apparently with the full intention of raping and then killing you....your telling me you wouldnt do your damndest to kill him FIRST?

self defense is different. murder is defined as killing an innocent person. i would protect myself. i'd be dumb not to.

explain why abortion isnt murder, seeker. its brutally killing a baby...maybe that child isnt born yet...but it is human. and if it was allowed to live, it would live a full and complete life. how is that not murder?

you say you've looked at all the evidence etc. yet you still think its ok to abort babies? I'm sorry...but i STRONGLY disagree. after seeing pictures of what looks like completely normal babies who were killed in horrible ways by abortion...its hard for me to understand how you still think it is not murder.

Seeking... · Mar 13, 2005

gallykid08 said:
self defense is different. murder is defined as killing an innocent person. i would protect myself. i'd be dumb not to.

explain why abortion isnt murder, seeker. its brutally killing a baby...maybe that child isnt born yet...but it is human. and if it was allowed to live, it would live a full and complete life. how is that not murder?

you say you've looked at all the evidence etc. yet you still think its ok to abort babies? I'm sorry...but i STRONGLY disagree. after seeing pictures of what looks like completely normal babies who were killed in horrible ways by abortion...its hard for me to understand how you still think it is not murder.

Actually, I believe murder is defined as unlawful killing. As long as abortion is legal, it is not murder.

Abortion is sometimes neccesary - that doesn't make it great or okay - it just makes it neccesary. Yes it looks ugly - but lots of neccesary parts of life are equally ugly and disturbing.

I don't view a non-viable fetus as a person, but as a being not on par with the woman carrying him or her. My focus is simply on the woman - on providing women with better education and options to avoid the need for most abortions and understanding for the women who find themselves with a real need for an abortion.

Is abortion better than the alternative?

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