Is a Theocracy Inherently Evil

[God's Fighter]

If you're watching the republican nomination debates right now, you'll hear Iran constantly referred to as a "theocracy" and that is why it must not be allowed to have weaponized nuclear material.

The question is this: Is a theocracy inherently evil? Regardless of what religion? (as a christian, my perspective is that Jesus is the *only* way to God, so this isn't a question of religious validity as that is a given)

Is it only an Islamic Theocracy that is dangerous? Or would a christian Theocracy in the US be just as dangerous to both secular and christian.

OR: Is any type of government, especially outside of democracy prone to have a person(s) wanting for power and complete unilateral control over resources/people/money corrupt the existing government and be harmful to peace and people alike? (Or destroy the old establishment under revolution only to impose a more oppressive regime.)

Is it just simply the sinful nature in us all that corrupts our own country theocracy or not?

Discuss

 

[file13]

The question is this: Is a theocracy inherently evil?

Well, we'd first have to ask "what makes something 'evil' to begin with?" As Christians, we hold that something "evil" is something that violates God's law, which itself is a reflection of His character. So if God is the measure for something being good or evil and we see that God clearly decreed a theocracy for the Children of Israel in the Torah, then clearly, not all theocracies are evil.

 

[Jase]

If you're watching the republican nomination debates right now, you'll hear Iran constantly referred to as a "theocracy" and that is why it must not be allowed to have weaponized nuclear material.

The question is this: Is a theocracy inherently evil? Regardless of what religion? (as a christian, my perspective is that Jesus is the *only* way to God, so this isn't a question of religious validity as that is a given)

Is it only an Islamic Theocracy that is dangerous? Or would a christian Theocracy in the US be just as dangerous to both secular and christian.

OR: Is any type of government, especially outside of democracy prone to have a person(s) wanting for power and complete unilateral control over resources/people/money corrupt the existing government and be harmful to peace and people alike? (Or destroy the old establishment under revolution only to impose a more oppressive regime.)

Is it just simply the sinful nature in us all that corrupts our own country theocracy or not?

Discuss

Yes, theocracies are inherently evil. They are always oppressive, unfair, and abusive. And yes, a Christian theocracy in the United States would make us just as bad as Iran is. Unfortunately, people like Perry and Santorum want that here.

 

[file13]

Yes, theocracies are inherently evil. They are always oppressive, unfair, and abusive.

So God had it wrong when He commanded Moses to setup one?

 

[dbcsf]

I am not in favor of a theocracy. I consider all governments to be evil, theocracies included.

Historically, the ancient Israelites had a theocracy. They also had a covenant. Yahweh was their God, they were the people of God, and God gave them the land.

As time went by this model was replaced. It was replaced primarily because it did not work. The Assyrians conquered the Northern Kingdom in the 700's, followed by the Bablylonians conquering Judah in the 500's. How does an Israelite relate to the covenant after they lose their land?

Jeremiah made the great leap forward by changing the theological understanding of "land". He made it a spiritual place as opposed to a physical place. This crucial change in how the people of God saw their relationship with God opened the door for Christianity. Our land is the "church". We live in a spiritual kingdom.

I am not comfortable when I hear people talk about how America is blessed by God, or soon to be cursed or corrected by God for the sinful behavior our our citizens or politicians. America has not been blessed anymore by God than any other country. God created the world, and he called it good. The whole planet is blessed in this sense.

Americans did bless America. We conquered it. We enslaved the blacks, killed off most of the Indians, killed off a lot of each other in the process, raped the land of it bounty and got real rich in the process.

To be fair, we are also extremely generous people, and we do lots of charity work in our own country and around the world. I am not trying to re-write history. I am just trying to be honest about our roots. Some people remember history one way, some people another way. I like to give credit to both sides, as long as the memories are a truthful as possible. Our ancestors have done a lot of good, but they have done a lot of bad also.

We currently do not and should not live in a theocracy. We are all free to worship Jesus, or follow any other path. God is not holding our nation up to any standard resembling anything out of the Old Testament as was applied to ancient Israel. Times have changed. Our relationship with God has improved. We are under the New Covenant.

Lets keep it that way.

 

[Jase]

So God had it wrong when He commanded Moses to setup one?

The commands of Moses were some of the most evil, barbaric atrocities in human history if we take those stories literally and assume they are true, so yes.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The state of heaven, as the state of the Garden of Eden were where there was the rule and reign of God. If one wants to call that theocracy then yes its good.
However the world is fallen and divided between those in Adam and those in Christ, so theocracy cant really work. A theocracy in reality in the world we live in would be laws and teaching that seeks to be in line with whatever god/diety/religion is concerned.

 

[jpcedotal]

I am not in favor of a theocracy. I consider all governments to be evil, theocracies included.

Historically, the ancient Israelites had a theocracy. They also had a covenant. Yahweh was their God, they were the people of God, and God gave them the land.

As time went by this model was replaced. It was replaced primarily because it did not work. The Assyrians conquered the Northern Kingdom in the 700's, followed by the Babylonians conquering Judah in the 500's. How does an Israelite relate to the covenant after they lose their land?

Jeremiah made the great leap forward by changing the theological understanding of "land". He made it a spiritual place as opposed to a physical place. This crucial change in how the people of God saw their relationship with God opened the door for Christianity. Our land is the "church". We live in a spiritual kingdom.

I am not comfortable when I hear people talk about how America is blessed by God, or soon to be cursed or corrected by God for the sinful behavior our our citizens or politicians. America has not been blessed anymore by God than any other country. God created the world, and he called it good. The whole planet is blessed in this sense.

Americans did bless America. We conquered it. We enslaved the blacks, killed off most of the Indians, killed off a lot of each other in the process, raped the land of it bounty and got real rich in the process.

To be fair, we are also extremely generous people, and we do lots of charity work in our own country and around the world. I am not trying to re-write history. I am just trying to be honest about our roots. Some people remember history one way, some people another way. I like to give credit to both sides, as long as the memories are a truthful as possible. Our ancestors have done a lot of good, but they have done a lot of bad also.

We currently do not and should not live in a theocracy. We are all free to worship Jesus, or follow any other path. God is not holding our nation up to any standard resembling anything out of the Old Testament as was applied to ancient Israel. Times have changed. Our relationship with God has improved. We are under the New Covenant.

Lets keep it that way.

The model God set up with the Israelites on Mt Sinai was not replaced because theocracy doesn't work. Check out Exodus and Numbers and Joshua...that is the strength of a theocracy and I do not question one death during that time because God is in control. Then Israelites slowly through many judges and kings moved away from God and his teachings and that is why God allowed the Assyrians and the Babylonians to conquer Judah and Israel. That is what Jeremiah is warning the people about. Sure there are times when Jeremiah was talking in two sometimes three different time frames...but his main point was "destruction comes to those who habitually and deliberately disobey God and more importantly show no faith in God and His divine will."

That is what America needs to learn from the Israelites. If we do not turn back to God who blessed this country for the past 500 years and make Him first again....destruction is coming...it really is that plain and simple.

No where in Scripture does it say America is the last great power or that it even will be "worldly" relevant in the end times (Yeah, I know about the Eagle references).

A theocracy isn't evil in itself, but even our churches do not use this form of government. All one has to do is sit in on a business meeting.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The commands of Moses were some of the most evil, barbaric atrocities in human history if we take those stories literally and assume they are true, so yes.

Though this is what is described as righteous judgement isnt it? Examples of what will happen to die in sin.
Jesus said about those who died when the tower collapsed, But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

 

[dbcsf]

The United States does not have a covenant relationship with God. God never appeared to George Washington or any other founding fathers and told them that He would be our God, and we would be His chosen People, and America would be our land. God never gave us ten commandments from a holy mountain. This concept that the United States relates to God similarly to how the Israelites related to Yahweh modeled in the Old Testament is a misinterpretation of the bible.

Speaking of blessing, I would have thought God would have punished the U.S. horribly for the slavery, and the genocide a long time ago. Since we are all still a country, I would submit that God did not punish us for sins of the 1600's through the 1920's, a time period during which terrible acts against humanity were committed by our ancestors.

Again, I am not saying this to downplay our greatness as a country, we have all done much to be proud of also. But, really, did God call us to commit genocide? Did God call us to enslave the blacks? Did God call us to cut down all our trees and carve up our mountains, pollute our rivers and lakes, Imperialize South America? If God did not call us to do these terrible things, and we did them, then were is the accountability? Where is the Assyrian invasion? Where is the punishment?

If we were not punished for sins of the past, which were considerably worse than our present sins (in my opinion), then how can you argue that God is going to punish America today?

The bible is a record of how people have related to God in times past leading up to the present. It is a record of a generally improving relationship.

I do not disagree that the Israelites violated the terms of their covenant. I do disagree that God offers the same covenant to the citizens of the United States. The Israelites failed to keep it. They demonstrated that some better, more versatile, form of covenant was needed. Jeremiah predicted exactly this.

Summary:
1) No evidence of covenant with the founding fathers, therefore no covenant.
2) No evidence of consequences of breaking the covenant after obvious violations at an earlier time period in U.S. history, therefore no covenant.
3) Obvious theological progression from Judges to Kings to second temple Judiasm, to Christianity demonstrating theological development of a New Covenant which fulfills/completes/replaces Old Covenant, therefore, no, we are not operating as a country in a model relationship with God analogous to the Old Testament model of Old Covenant.

Jesus came to earth and provided the New Covenant.

 

[file13]

The commands of Moses were some of the most evil, barbaric atrocities in human history if we take those stories literally and assume they are true, so yes.

How did you come to the conclusion that the commands are Moses' and not God's?

 

[Jpark]

While not always evil, theocracy is inherently self-preserving and selfish.

 

[Jpark]

How did you come to the conclusion that the commands are Moses' and not God's?

The only time where Moses' commands are distinguished from God's is in Matthew 19:7-8.

Other times, they were from God.

How is it barbaric when God is a jealous God (Deut. 4:24)? Jealousy knows no limits. Extremity is abundant. Numbers 25. Again, the commands were from God. We must not show any skepticism of Moses because Moses walked with God.

 

[file13]

The only time where Moses' commands are distinguished from God's is in Matthew 19:7-8.

Other times, they were from God.

Thanks brother for the input, but I was looking for his reasoning to better understand his conclusion.

 

[JediMobius]

Bah.

Ahmadinejad has been a vocal supporter of Iran's nuclear program, and has insisted that it is for peaceful purposes. He has repeatedly emphasized that building a nuclear bomb is not the policy of his government. He has said that such a policy is "illegal and against our religion."[100][101] He also added at a January 2006 conference in Tehran that a nation with "culture, logic and civilization" would not need nuclear weapons, and that countries that seek nuclear weapons are those that want to solve all problems by the use of force.[102] In a 2008 interview Ahmadinejad elaborated that countries striving to obtain nuclear weapons are not politically progressive nations and those who possess them and continually make new generations of such bombs are "even more backward".

(from wikipedia)

So, I don't see what's so dangerous about Iran's nuclear program, I don't see them committing nuclear suicide, if they get the bomb, by launching.

More to the point, though, what does it matter the name or style of government? It is the concentration of power which leads to tyranny, and even our democratic republic is susceptible to this. Certainly, a theocracy is more prone to the concentration of power into the hands of a few than other types of government, but the difference in oppression would not necessarily be of degree, but type. No matter what particular group gains power in a given country, each will have its own set of biases. Depending what protections are already in place, oppression may be staved-off, but it's only a matter of time if the regime stays in control. Which groups are the target of this oppression is the only indicator of how many will be oppressed under a tyrannical government of any type.

Is a theocracy inherently evil? Only in the sense that the individuals who perpetrate tyranny are evil.

 

[WinBySurrender]

(from wikipedia)

That's the first problem ...

So, I don't see what's so dangerous about Iran's nuclear program, I don't see them committing nuclear suicide, if they get the bomb, by launching.

And that's the second one: You believed him. You're dealing not with a theocracy in Iran but a lunatic fringe who believe that martyrdom is the greatest way a man or a nation could express faith. There are those in Iran -- not all of them, but enough in positions of power that it's exceptionally scary -- who wouldn't worry about the resulting annihilation of Iran, so long as the "little Satan" Israel is destroyed. There would be very little in the way of moral fiber or reasoned intellect that would keep someone in Iran from pushing the little red "Launch" button.

More to the point, though, what does it matter the name or style of government? It is the concentration of power which leads to tyranny, and even our democratic republic is susceptible to this.

If you are saying our government is tyrannical, I vehemently disagree. If you're saying it could become tyrannical, I says "That's what the checks and balances are for."

Certainly, a theocracy is more prone to the concentration of power into the hands of a few than other types of government ...

That would be an autocracy. A theocracy could conceivably be a democracy with the caveat that the government considered itself divinely guided. Not sure that would be workable since I'm pretty sure there would be at least as many opinions about "what God really said" as there were people in the government.

Is a theocracy inherently evil? Only in the sense that the individuals who perpetrate tyranny are evil.

Making the assumption that a theocracy would equate with tyranny may be a logical leap to a conclusion, but it is nonetheless a leap, not supported by facts that differ from case to case.

 

[Gnarwhal]

If you're watching the republican nomination debates right now, you'll hear Iran constantly referred to as a "theocracy" and that is why it must not be allowed to have weaponized nuclear material.

The question is this: Is a theocracy inherently evil? Regardless of what religion? (as a christian, my perspective is that Jesus is the *only* way to God, so this isn't a question of religious validity as that is a given)

Is it only an Islamic Theocracy that is dangerous? Or would a christian Theocracy in the US be just as dangerous to both secular and christian.

OR: Is any type of government, especially outside of democracy prone to have a person(s) wanting for power and complete unilateral control over resources/people/money corrupt the existing government and be harmful to peace and people alike? (Or destroy the old establishment under revolution only to impose a more oppressive regime.)

Is it just simply the sinful nature in us all that corrupts our own country theocracy or not?

Discuss

I think a theocracy is volatile because the different opinions of how things should be interpreted and subsequently implemented. I think a Christian theocracy would be just as dangerous as an Islamic one because of some of the extreme factions of Christianity that have violent and aggressive inclinations.

 

[WinBySurrender]

I think a Christian theocracy would be just as dangerous as an Islamic one because of some of the extreme factions of Christianity that have violent and aggressive inclinations.

Like which ones, for instance?

 

[God's Fighter]

Sorry, I've been out of town for two days. I just finished reading all of your posts. Some interesting discussion, some of it off topic.

As for old testament Israel being a theocracy, I guess it was, but I haven't advocated my point of view yet, merely observing and mediating here. But as some said, that was a direct covenant from God with Israel. So old testament Israel is our best example of a real theocracy between God and man, with all the blessings and corrections that come with it.

As for a modern theocracy, the question was begged essentially, is it even possible to have a theocracy anymore? Wouldn't it require direct communication from God and with the appointment of a ruler by God? Or is a christian filled with the Holy Spirit and the Word of God enough to be that ruler and form a theocracy? Perhaps if the theocracy wasn't on a national level but perhaps a "village"? (No I am not attempting to create a utopian society )

Also keep in mind, the millennial reign would be a theocracy, so for those who call it inherently evil... I would say rethink that judgment given light of old testament Israel and future christendom.

Good discussion so far.

 

[Jase]

How did you come to the conclusion that the commands are Moses' and not God's?

They are a combination of both if taken literally. But I don't think God actually condoned the atrocities found in the OT, I think the Israelites merely used him as justification for their evil actions the same way the Crusaders and Witch Burners did.