Irrefutable facts

[k4c]

The seventh day of every week is a literal day.

The seventh day Sabbath is part of creation.

The seventh day was blessed and sanctified by God before sin was in the world.

Jesus kept the Sabbath.

Paul continued to keep the Sabbath long after Jesus.

All Jesus' followers kept the Sabbath after Jesus died.

Jesus didn't do away with the Law or the Sabbath.

The Sabbath change from Saturday to Sunday came long after Jesus.

Persecution came to Sabbath keepers as a result of the change.

Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath day.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The seventh day of every week is a literal day.

But we don't know for sure whether it is Saturday.

The seventh day Sabbath is part of creation.

The seventh day is mentioned as part of creation, "the Sabbath" is not.

The seventh day was blessed and sanctified by God before sin was in the world.

There is no recorded command for men to do anything special with it before sin was in the world.

Jesus kept the Sabbath.

Jesus worked on the sabbath.

Paul continued to keep the Sabbath long after Jesus.

Paul's seventh day behavior was no different than his first day behavior. He did not hold a high regard for observing days and months and seasons and years.

All Jesus' followers kept the Sabbath after Jesus died.

That's quite a claim.

Jesus didn't do away with the Law or the Sabbath.

No. He fulfilled law. Animal sacrifices are one good example.

The Sabbath change from Saturday to Sunday came long after Jesus.

The sabbath change from the seventh day to Sunday never occurred.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath day.

Yes, the sabbath is not Lord over Jesus.

BFA

 

[k4c]

But we don't know for sure whether it is Saturday.

The seventh day is mentioned as part of creation, "the Sabbath" is not.

There is no recorded command for men to do anything special with it before sin was in the world.

Jesus worked on the sabbath.

Paul's seventh day behavior was no different than his first day behavior. He did not hold a high regard for observing days and months and seasons and years.

That's quite a claim.

No. He fulfilled law. Animal sacrifices are one good example.

The sabbath change from the seventh day to Sunday never occurred.

Yes, the sabbath is not Lord over Jesus.

BFA

I don't know who taught you these things but you need to go back to the drawing board.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I don't know who taught you these things but you need to go back to the drawing board.

Perhaps. However, I am puzzling over your use of the word "irrefutable."

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

One thing is irrefutable, k4c is clearly stuck on "the law."

 

[Avonia]

One thing is irrefutable, k4c is clearly stuck on "the law."

If it is indeed irrefutable, then either:

1. Almost everyone across the history of the planet has been unable to comprehend the obvious.

or

2. The Bible is incoherent enough to not adequately convey the message.

Oh boy. I forgot #3. Devil is deceiving everyone. Man that one has to be the handiest catch all ever.

In light of #3 - never mind.

 

[Avonia]

Perhaps. However, I am puzzling over your use of the word "irrefutable."

BFA

In breaking down the word, I believe it means NOT (ir) RETURNING (re) to FRUIT-NESS (sp?)

But I'd have to freedictionary that one to be sure.

BFA - I'm always happy to help.

 

[AzA]

In breaking down the word, I believe it means NOT (ir) RETURNING (re) to FRUIT-NESS (sp?)

But I'd have to freedictionary that one to be sure.

Webster only takes it back to the root refutare, a fairly recent word (mid 1500s).

Here's the online etymology dictionary on that: re+futare
Futare means "to beat."

 

[AzA]

That said, I loved "refudiate" (Palin).
Perhaps "irrefudiate" will emerge in a few decades.

A bit like "irregardless."

 

[k4c]

Devil is deceiving everyone. Man that one has to be the handiest catch all ever.

Sabbath keepers are not alone in identifying the true Sabbath, only in keeping it.

Church of England: "Many people think that Sunday is the Sabbath. But neither in the New Testament nor in the early church is there anything to suggest that we have any right to transfer the observance of the seventh day of the week to the first. The Sabbath was and is Saturday and not Sunday, and if it were binding on us then church, and the church alone." Hobart Church News.

Presbyterian: "The Christian Sabbath (Sunday) is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive church called the Sabbath." Dwight's Theology, Vol. 14, p. 401. "A further argument for the perpetuity of the Sabbath we have in Matthew 24:20, Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter neither on the Sabbath day. But the final destruction of Jerusalem was after the Christian dispensation was fully set up (AD 70). Yet it is plainly implied in these words of the Lord that even then Christians were bound to strict observation of the Sabbath." Works of Jonathon Edwards, (Presby.) Vol. 4, p. 621.

Baptist: "There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath was not Sunday. Earnestly desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask, where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament; absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week ... Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in later Christian history as a" religious day." But what a realization that it comes branded with the mark of paganism and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to protestantism." Dr. Edward Hiscox, Author of the Baptist Manual.

Methodist: "The Sabbath instituted in the beginning, and confirmed again and again by Moses and the prophets, has never been abrogated. A part of the moral law, not a jot or a tittle of its sanctity has been taken away." Bishops Pastoral. "It is true there is no positive command for infant baptism ... nor is there any for conclusively answer an Adventist in his Scriptural contention that the Seventh day is the Sabbath (Ex. 20:10). It is not 'one day in seven' as some put it, but 'the seventh day according to the commandment.' " Words of Truth and Grace, p. 281.

Lutheran: "The observance of the "Lord's Day "(Sunday, named by Pope Leo) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the Church." Augsburg Confession of Faith.

Congregational: "It is clear that, however rigidly or devoutly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath ... The Sabbath was founded on a specific divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday ... There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday." Dr. Dale, The Ten Commandments, pp. 106, 107.

Church of Christ: "But we do not find any direct command from God, or instruction from the risen Christ, or admonition from the early apostles, that the first day is to be substituted for the seventh day Sabbath." "Let us be clear on this point. Though to the Christian 'that day, the first day of the week' is the most memorable of all days ... there is no command or warrant in the New Testament for observing it as a holy day." "The Roman Church selected the first day of the week in honor of the resurrection of Christ. ..." Bible Standard, May, 1916, Auckland, New Zealand.
Salvation Army: Copy of an Affidavit by Louis Currow, Minister in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia: I, Louis Currow of Ballarat, do solemnly and sincerely declare THAT, I did hear the following statement made by General William Booth, the founder of the Salvation Army at an Officers' meeting in the City Temple, Bourke Street, Melbourne. VIZ. Friends, don't you know that we are not keeping the true Sabbath. Two other officers and myself took our stand for the Sabbath, also a lady sergeant major, that heard the statement from his lips. And I make this solemn declaration, etc. Declared at Ballarat in the state of Victoria, 10th May, 1934, before me, (signed) F.A.Cooper, J.P.

ENCYCLOPEDIA AMERICANA: "Constantine the Great made a law for the whole empire (AD 321) that Sunday should be kept as a day of rest."

CHAMBERS ENCYCLOPEDIA: "Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of Sunday is known to have been ordained, is the Sabbatical edict of Constantine, AD 321." Art. Sunday.

The Catholic Church says: "There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the Holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says 'Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' The Catholic church says, "No, By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week." And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church." Priest Thomas Enright, CSSR, President of Redemptorist College, Kansas City, Missouri, in a lecture at Hartford, Kansas, and printed in the American Sentinel, June 1883, a New York Roman Catholic journal.

 

[Avonia]

Sabbath keepers are not alone in identifying the true Sabbath, only in keeping it.

I'm only quoting this in good fun so you can read it again. It is kind of funny. Think about it.

 

[k4c]

I'm only quoting this in good fun so you can read it again. It is kind of funny. Think about it.

I must be slow this morning because I don't see the humor. Can you explain the punch line?

 

[Avonia]

It seems traditional Adventists have an interesting challenge. On the one hand, there is a preference for a more literal interpretation of scripture. On the other hand, we take interpretive leaps that aren't at all obvious to a reader making no assumptions. I wish we would simply acknowledge this and move ahead. It doesn't mean we have to ditch Sabbath.

I grew up in the Seventh-day Adventist community, and I remember when I was first aware of some of these assumptions as a child. I didn't see an obvious link between the creation story and the Sabbath the Children of Israel observed - at least not one simply represented in scripture. Although the link is obvious within a Sabbatarian meme.

If somebody with no exposure to the Bible dropped down on the planet (they are conveniently English speaking - of course) it's hard to imagine a neutral person aligning with a traditional SDA interpretation of Sabbath based solely on the debates on this forum - whether SDAs are right or wrong about the issue.

Although, in that scenario, our visitor would just shake it's head at the fact we are fussing about it in the first place.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

In breaking down the word, I believe it means NOT (ir) RETURNING (re) to FRUIT-NESS (sp?)

But I'd have to freedictionary that one to be sure.

BFA - I'm always happy to help.

Thanks!

BFA

 

[Breetai]

k4c, does your wife sacrifice two doves or pigeons on the 8th day after their vaginal bleeding has stopped? Do you ritually wash yourself if you sit on a seat or lie on your bed during your wife's menstrual cycle, and not have contact with anyone else until you have done so and waited until evening? I sure hope so, or else you and your wife are hypocrites!!!

 

[Joe67]

Deut 8:3
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. KJV

Matt 4:3-4
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. KJV

Deut 5:22
22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. KJV

Let us not add to the words and act as judges of the law and through will worship bow down to the stones and the image of God's Voice engraved upon them by his finger.

Let us beware lest we despise the words and take away from them and take the name of the Lord in vain and remain in our sins through voluntary humility.

Joe

 

[Haldog]

I don't know who taught you these things but you need to go back to the drawing board.

LOL, right idea, wrong person.