Iron knee

[MorkandMindy]

That the PM and his advisors / cabinet etc. could not come up with a good reason for being in the EU is exactly why we needed to be in the EU, our leaders are rubbish

 

[theFijian]

Logic fail

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[MorkandMindy]

I think there may have been too much attention focused on the EU, the errors of commision by the EU and too little on what we have been screwing up over the same period of time.

We need to focus on what successful countries are doing.

The overall picture is that the industries in middling countries are being undercut by the planned economies of Asia and there will be an outflow of cash to Asia until such time as either

1/ costs in Britain, the US etc. fall to equal the costs in China

or 2/ skill levels rise as they are in Germany and the Scandinavian countries to justify a pay that is a multiple of the pay rates in China.

Simple choice really.

And if we are so stupid that we end up with 'leaders' like Cameron who don't have any vision for the future, then we are in category 1. With leadership from Europe we might move further toward situation 2.

Basically because our leader is so useless many of us are also at fault for ending up with him therefore we need to think very seriously about whether we can run our own country better on our own than with the EU.

That's the irony, that a badly run 'stay' campaign could be a good indication that we need leadership from Europe.

 

[theFijian]

I think there may have been too much attention focused on the EU, the errors of commision by the EU

So we should basically ignore the issues with the EU, more logic fail.

We need to focus on what successful countries are doing.

The most successful countries in Europe, Norway and Switzerland, are outside of the EU. Iron knee indeed.

 

[Oafman]

The most successful countries in Europe, Norway and Switzerland, are outside of the EU. Iron knee indeed.

Successful because they're in the EEA and Schengen. Which is almost certainly not what the British public just asked for.

 

[TheNorwegian]

Successful because they're in the EEA and Schengen. Which is almost certainly not what the British public just asked for.

What? It would be very easy to argue that Norway and Switzerland is successful in spite of - not because of - those agreements. Schengen has only brought costs to those to countries, and very few benefits. And of course, Switzerland is not part of EEA...

 

[Oafman]

What? It would be very easy to argue that Norway and Switzerland is successful in spite of - not because of - those agreements.

Not convincingly it wouldn't. It's not easy to predict the effect on the 75% on its exports that Norway sells into the EEA if Norway were to withdraw. It would depend on what sort of deal with the EEA they negotiated, but I think it's safe to assume it would not be as good for exporters as full EEA access.

To be clear, Norway would be fine regardless. Oil and gas ensures that. But I think you guys would lose some export revenue. Switzerland is a similar story, especially as regards the financial sector.

Schengen has only brought costs to those to countries, and very few benefits.

Nonsense. Switzerland is full of highly paid overseas workers, doing great things for their economy. And they are hugely reliant on migrant labour for their lower-paid jobs. Plus, there are successful Swiss workers all over Europe. Plenty here in London. I'm less familiar with Norway (never been )

And of course, Switzerland is not part of EEA...

But has a high degree of single market access, via EFTA and other agreements

 

[TheNorwegian]

Not convincingly it wouldn't. It's not easy to predict the effect on the 75% on its exports that Norway sells into the EEA if Norway were to withdraw. It would depend on what sort of deal with the EEA they negotiated, but I think it's safe to assume it would not be as good for exporters as full EEA access.

To be clear, Norway would be fine regardless. Oil and gas ensures that. But I think you guys would lose some export revenue. Switzerland is a similar story, especially as regards the financial sector.

Maybe not as good for some of the exporters, but better for those that compete against import from the EU. Leaving oil and gas out of the equation - far more exports from EU to Norway than the other way around.

Anyways, it is not like without EEA there would be no trade. Most trade is regulated through WTO

Nonsense. Switzerland is full of highly paid overseas workers, doing great things for their economy. And they are hugely reliant on migrant labour for their lower-paid jobs. Plus, there are successful Swiss workers all over Europe. Plenty here in London. I'm less familiar with Norway (never been )

You call my argument 'nonsens'??
Your argument sounds like without Schengen there would be no foreign workers in Norway and Switzerland. What exactly would stop Switzerland from hiring workers from other nations, even if they were not part of Schengen? The point is that outside Schengen it is possible to decide who can come and who can not come into your nation.
From an economical point it makes sense to offer work permits only to those you want to offer it to. Two major costs of Schengen is the inflow of non-skilled workers and increased mobility of criminals.

 

[Oafman]

Maybe not as good for some of the exporters, but better for those that compete against import from the EU. Leaving oil and gas out of the equation - far more exports from EU to Norway than the other way around.

Anyways, it is not like without EEA there would be no trade. Most trade is regulated through WTO

So worse for some exporters, and there would still be trade with WTO tariffs, and if you leave out your biggest export sector then you have a balance of payments surplus? And none of this seems like a big deal to you?

You call my argument 'nonsens'??
Your argument sounds like without Schengen there would be no foreign workers in Norway and Switzerland. What exactly would stop Switzerland from hiring workers from other nations, even if they were not part of Schengen? The point is that outside Schengen it is possible to decide who can come and who can not come into your nation.
From an economical point it makes sense to offer work permits only to those you want to offer it to. Two major costs of Schengen is the inflow of non-skilled workers and increased mobility of criminals.

Regulating movement would hinder companies. They would have to jump though hoops to get people; more admin and red tape. There would inevitably be quotas, and some companies would be unable to get the people they need. This is the whole reason that Schengen was introduced. There are huge economic benefits from freedom of movement, and huge costs in its absence.

 

[TheNorwegian]

So worse for some exporters, and there would still be trade with WTO tariffs, and if you leave out your biggest export sector then you have a balance of payments surplus? And none of this seems like a big deal to you?.

Scaremongering.
You make it sound like EU only trade with EEA or within themselves. It is not like 'be part of EA or export nothing'
I do believe European countries would still buy oil, gas, fish, etc. from Norway

Regulating movement would hinder companies. They would have to jump though hoops to get people; more admin and red tape. There would inevitably be quotas, and some companies would be unable to get the people they need. This is the whole reason that Schengen was introduced.

Scaremongering once again. What about the US? Do they not have immigrants - even though they are not part of EU?

 

[Oafman]

Scaremongering.
You make it sound like EU only trade with EEA or within themselves. It is not like 'be part of EA or export nothing'
I do believe European countries would still buy oil, gas, fish, etc. from Norway

Sure they would. But with tariffs. In some cases, these tariffs would make some Norwegian products uncompetitive, when compared to EEA based production. Sales, revenues, employment and tax take will all fall. This is economics, not scaremongering.

Scaremongering once again. What about the US? Do they not have immigrants - even though they are not part of EU?

Yeah, almost everywhere has immigrants. But almost everywhere, companies are asking for reduced restrictions on who they can bring in, what administration is required for them to do so, how long they can bring in people for and a bunch of other restrictions which make it harder for them to operate. And crucially, which make it harder for them to match their European competitors, who have none of these problems (within their EU operations). Companies hate it when their rivals have an advantage. In some cases, if they can't beat them, they'll join them, and relocate to an environment where it is easier to do business.