Investigative Judgement

[Jimlarmore]

I discuss the investigative judgement with some former Adventists from time to time. Most of them dismiss this as a false teaching of our church. I hadn't known about this until I went on the carm.org discussion forum. Mostly they say the I J is a product of Ellen White and an out growth of the great disappointment of 1844.

I'd like to hear some wisdom from some of you on this out there. Specifically, one of the main claims these formers make is that if the I J is correct it takes away the atonement aspect of the crucifixtion. I don't really understand their perspective on this but that is the way they come at it. Additonally, they say that our sins cannot be transferred to heaven a perfectly pure environment where God the Father lives.

Comments?

 

[Dathen]

I've never heard of the investigatice judgement. The names for the 3 stages I know of are, pre-millenial, millenial and the white throne. Seen in the millenial judgement we are in heaven and seeing who is there and who isn't and checking why, some may call that the investigative judgement, seen as we are investigating and will declare the Lords judgements are correct. Apart from that I don't know what it means.

 

[OntheDL]

I discuss the investigative judgement with some former Adventists from time to time. Most of them dismiss this as a false teaching of our church. I hadn't known about this until I went on the carm.org discussion forum. Mostly they say the I J is a product of Ellen White and an out growth of the great disappointment of 1844.

I'd like to hear some wisdom from some of you on this out there. Specifically, one of the main claims these formers make is that if the I J is correct it takes away the atonement aspect of the crucifixtion. I don't really understand their perspective on this but that is the way they come at it. Additonally, they say that our sins cannot be transferred to heaven a perfectly pure environment where God the Father lives.

Comments?

Check out this thread. It's been discussed at length.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2564293-the-biblical-support-for-the-investigative-judgement.html

You can still post comments, follow-up to it.

 

[Sophia7]

Here are a few more threads in which we have discussed it recently:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3883981-resources-for-the-sanctuary.html
http://www.christianforums.com/t3257517-our-sins-jesus-ministry-in-the-heavenly-sanctuary.html
http://www.christianforums.com/t3776883-day-of-atonement-not-at-jesus’-ascension.html
http://www.christianforums.com/t3859086-1844-sacantuary-message-what-difference-does-it-make.html

Also, here is OntheDL's continuing study on the sanctuary in the Traditional SDA forum:
http://www.christianforums.com/t3039271-the-sanctuary-study.html

The IJ was a pretty popular subject around here for a while.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thankyou Dathen, OntheDL and Sophia for contributing to my thread. It looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

 

[Cliff2]

I suggest that you study this week's Sabbath School Lesson and in particular how God pronounced judgment upon Adam and Eve and to those who would follow.

God knew where and what Adam and Eve had done. But right then God showed to the universe that the judgments that were to be announced upon the human race were justified and correct.

God could have right then and there banished them from their Eden home with the results of sin upon them. They were now naked and ashamed but God did not do that at all.

God investigated and asked questions before any announcement was made.

The whole universe now knew why God was just and true.

That will be the same at the end of this earth's history. God's judgments against all humans will be there for the universe to see.

The sin problem will never arise again because has investigated every case and not only that God says we will judge when we are in heaven.

What a great justice system God has that is open for all to see.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Thankyou Cliff2,
The Sabbath school lesson is good this week isn't it? I noticed too that in the case of the tower of Babel that God said "Let us go down and see what they have done." God already knew what had happened. It was for the benefit of the angels and unfallen worlds that the investigation was made. Again, in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah the Lord came down and visited the patriach Abraham so that an investigative judgement may occurr on those cities with Abraham petitioning the Lord to spare the cities if as many as 10 righteous folks could be found. In the IJ like you say it's for the benefit of the entire universe to see the justness of God and His righteousness that this investigation is made.

God bless you brother

Happy Sabbath

Jim Larmore

 

[Jon0388g]

Hi Jim,

Just to add that another book in the Bible which parallels God's IJ is the book of Ezekiel, which is said to be one of the most overlooked in the topic of the Sanctuary. Some even suggest that Revelation follows the pattern of Ezekiel even more than it does Daniel.

It is quite interesting. Check it out.

Jon

 

[Dathen]

I'd love to do Sabbath school, but my church is really new and what you would call unorthodox, so no Sabbath School.

 

[Sunrunner]

I'd love to do Sabbath school, but my church is really new and what you would call unorthodox, so no Sabbath School.

No Sabbath School?! What is your church like?

Sabbath School is the "meat" of going to Church.

 

[Cliff2]

I'd love to do Sabbath school, but my church is really new and what you would call unorthodox, so no Sabbath School.

That is a shame because this week's and it is now in Australia last week's Sabbath School Lesson was very good.

Do you have the Sabbath School Lesson Study Guide?

If you do not, you can read it online.

http://www.ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06d/less05.html

That is the current Lesson for adults, Week 5

 

[Dathen]

I like my church, it's good!!! But I'd like Sabbath school. We call the childrens program Sabbath School, instead. Our churches slogan is 'a new beginning'. It is called the church for the unchurched. So we try to keep it so that it appeals to non church goers. Personally I'd like Sabbath school, but I suppose it could scare away new people.

And Cliff2 I don't even have the guides.

 

[Cliff2]

http://www.ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06d/less05.html

Dathen

You can get all the study guides at the above link. Let me know if you have any trouble getting them from there.

If you want to do serious study you should look at the teachers study guide. I am sure you would handle that OK.

 

[Dathen]

Thanks!!!

 

[Jimlarmore]

Hi Jim,

Just to add that another book in the Bible which parallels God's IJ is the book of Ezekiel, which is said to be one of the most overlooked in the topic of the Sanctuary. Some even suggest that Revelation follows the pattern of Ezekiel even more than it does Daniel.

It is quite interesting. Check it out.

Jon

Thankyou Jon. The book of Ezekiel is very apocalyptic and I haven't studied it in the depth that I need to. One of my favorite parts of that book is the place where God ask Ezekiel to prophecie over the dried up old bones. Then God re-creates new senue and flesh on them. Sounds almost like what will happen at the 2nd coming just before the resurrection of the righteous.

 

[Dathen]

I hevn't read Ezekiel yet, but I am approaching it in my study (Which I'm up to psalms and 1 Samuel.)

 

[Jimlarmore]

Way to go Dathen, You are about to enter some of the best books in the Bible in my opinion. I think most of the Psalms should be read on our knees as they are to me a prayer to the creator. Read Ps 51 and see what I mean.

God bless you little brother

Jim Larmore

 

[Dathen]

Psalm 51, that's in my reading tonight!!

 

[Jimlarmore]

Ok, I want to get on with some Biblical support for the IJ from the Bible. In Daniel 8:14 where the marah or the 2300 day prophecy is given we read, " And he said unto me , Unto two thousand and three hundred days then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." This is a time line we need to establish by Biblical support to determine if it is literal days or years the angel is speaking. We know from the language that it is definetely referring to the sanctuary and or the day of atonement. A little further we read in verse 17, "So he came near where I stood and when he came I was afraid and fell upon my face: but he said unto me , Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." So even though at this point in Daniel we can't know when the time line of the 2300 day prophecy will start we know from this text that this cleansing is for the time of the end. That brings an earthly sanctuary immediately into suspect because we know that the earthly sanctuarial ceremonies were done away with at the cross when the veil in the temple was torn in half, Mark 15:38.

So how can we know what time to start this 2300 day prophecy? The Bible tells us that Daniel was greatly troubled over this prophecy in Dan 8:26-27 and I can believe he really wanted to understand it. So Daniel prayed for his people and himself fervently and God sent Gabriel back to help him understand it in Dan 9:21.

In verse 22 it says " And he informed me and talked with me and said O Daniel , I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding." So we see that the interpretation of this 2300 day prophecy would take both skill and understanding not just understanding. Then in the next few verses we see where a time to start the marah and the messainic time line is given. In vrs 23 Gabriel starts out this part with " Therefore know and understand the matter and consider the vision." What vision? The 2300 day prophecy vision given earlier.

Then verse 24 says, " Seventy weeks are determined upon they people and upon thy holy city to finish the transgression and to make and end of sins and make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy and to annoint the most High."

vrs 25 "Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the prince shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall even in troublous times."

So there we have it. All we have to do is find from history when the command to restore and build Jerusalem was decreed. That sounds like it would be easy to do but the problem is there were more than one decree to do this. As a matter of fact there were three. Kind of makes one realize that the devil is a good Bible scholar and may have caused this to try to confuse this issue later on. Anyway, the only decree that was made that really made it happen was the one done by Artaxerxes in Ezra 7:21. That was done in 457 B.C. by historical accounts. So if the messiah came right on time according to this prophecy then we would know how to account for prophetic time. Now this is where comes "SKILL" part of the prophecy comes in

First off if we take the 70 weeks as literal that is 490 days it won't work at all, why? That amount of time wouldn't even get Daniel out of the land of Babylon, so we have to use another form of time keeping. Which one? A day for a month? Nope that wouldn't be enough either and history didn't give us anything at that time. So if we use a day for a year we come up with 490 years which is 70 weeks of days minus 457= 33 A.D. + a zero year comes to 34 A.D. Remember that date. Let's continue.

The messiah was to come in 7 weeks + three score ( 60) and 2 weeks = 69 weeks or 483 years. So if we take 483 minus 483 = 26 A.D. plus a zero year = 27 A.D. What happened in 27 A.D.? Jesus was baptized and began His ministry right on time. So we know our starting point is right and we know that the day for a year principle is correct.

I want to stop here and let anyone pick this thing apart if they want before I go on.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Whew, that last post was a little long . I hope no one got too bored. Lets review a few facts we found and I'll make this one shorter.

1. The 2300 day prophecy is actually a 2300 year prophecy.

2. It started in 457 B.C. with the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem.

3. It was specifically said to apply to the time of the end and was sealed until then.

4. The messiah came right on time to confirm the prophecy for Him in Daniel.

Ok, so if the prophecy for the messiah was correct then we can be pretty sure that if we take 457 B.C. and add 2300 years to it we come to 1844 so the sanctuary has to be cleansed during this year. This was a conclusion that theologians all over the world came to independently in the mid 19th century and many of them became Adventists. There were baptist Adventist, Methodist Adventist, Episcopalian Adventist etc. etc. Fine tuning of the date in 1844 came to Oct 22 . Now the big problem was that all the Adventist back then really thought or assumed that the cleansing of the sanctuary meant the Lord was coming back for His 2nd time on Oct 22, but that is not what happened at all.

This has become known as the great disappointment because we all know that the Lord didn't come back at that time. Right after this the majority of the Adventists fell away and abandoned the cause. A few loyal to God knew they were right on the dates but what were they missing about the cleansing of the sancturary? What did it really mean? They prayed and fasted and studied and studied. The Lord always answers fervent prayers of His faithful flock when they ask in this way.

The answer started to come when they were reading Rev 10. In this chapter we see a mighty angel standing with his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the earth and in his hand was an open little book This started to spark their thinking. Could this little book be referring to Daniel? As they furthered their study in this chapter they found that John was told to take the book from the angels hand and eat it and it would be sweet as honey in his mouth but bitter in his stomach. John did this and indeed it happened as the angel told him it was sweet in his mouth but bitter in his belly. Could this be the dissappointment they were going thru right now? Wasn't the unveiling of the mysteries of God Rev10:7 in the book of Daniel a sweet thing and the hope of the 2nd advent was certainly a very sweet thing, but the aftermath was a great disappointment or a bitter experience indeed.

The next part will blow your mind as we further our study in the context of Rev 10 and onward to support an investigative judgment.