Interpreting the NT. Help!

[Raul7]

Hi Everyone,

I happen to be Muslim and since we believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) as a Prophet I wanted to learn more about his history. Naturally, I decided to take Historical Jesus at University and at first I thought it would be a relatively neutral class that just relied on present-day evidence, etc. But I was in for a surprise.

Anyways, to cut a long story short we are now supposed to read 'Interpreting the NT' by H. Conzelmann and it requires a good foundation of Christianity, Christian texts and theology. I am currently lost in the midst of all the texts it refers back to in every single sentence.

Anyone read this book? Can you guide me through parts of it?

 

[TheGuide]

Hi Everyone,

I happen to be Muslim and since we believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) as a Prophet I wanted to learn more about his history. Naturally, I decided to take Historical Jesus at University and at first I thought it would be a relatively neutral class that just relied on present-day evidence, etc. But I was in for a surprise.

Anyways, to cut a long story short we are now supposed to read 'Interpreting the NT' by H. Conzelmann and it requires a good foundation of Christianity, Christian texts and theology. I am currently lost in the midst of all the texts it refers back to in every single sentence.

Anyone read this book? Can you guide me through parts of it?

I have not read H. Conzelmann's book, but I can help you if you are actually reading the New Testiment of the Bible.

You want to concentrate on the Gospel of John. Now there are four gospels surrounding pretty much the same events (confirming each account as seen by the author), but most people particularly like John.

I have to interject that the reason you may not be absorbing this book is because you are reading it from an intellectual perspective, which is how we learn in the natural. But God's word is spiritual. I recommend that you ask God to open your spiritual mind to your lesson about the new testiment and trust that he will grant you your request the moment you ask. Then read John and see if your comprehension is better. If it is then your study materials should be much easier to get through.

The Guide

 

[heron]

How frustrating! If there are any specific questions you need to get through, just add them to your thread; I think people will respond fairly quickly.

If this is a university course, they're not allowed to get too opinionated, or pressure you personally. Keep doing what you can to fit your learning into the few weeks you have.

You're in a situation like entering a biochem class as a biology student amongst chemistry students. You will feel behind, but maybe you are ahead in certain areas you won't expect.

Some of the other students might be overwhelmed too. Focus on the information that you will need for the course, when reading. The instructor probably doesn't expect you to know it all, but values some of the points that the author is making, or finds it a good analysis of history.

Deep breaths. (-:
​

 

[heron]

Here are two outlines of the NT that might help you feel more anchored.

http://www.internetdynamics.com/personal/spadkins/god/book/overview.html
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/context.html

I use this site all the time to look things up. It can really speed up your research.

http://www.studylight.org/his/ad/

I use it for word searches in the Bible, but the link above is for historical writings that might have been in the book.

 

[Catherineanne]

Anyways, to cut a long story short we are now supposed to read 'Interpreting the NT' by H. Conzelmann and it requires a good foundation of Christianity, Christian texts and theology. I am currently lost in the midst of all the texts it refers back to in every single sentence.

Anyone read this book? Can you guide me through parts of it?

I have not read the book you say, but I am happy to try to clarify anything it says, or to try to point you towards places to find help.

It sounds as if you have a real challenge on your hands, and I commend your efforts.

The problem you are coming up with is that the vast majority of evidence for Our Lord is found in the Gospels and the New Testament. There are references outside these sources, as no doubt you have been told, in both Josephus and in Tacitus, but these are fleeting.

So unfortunately for you, in a way, once these have been acknowleged, any study of who Jesus was is necessarily going to centre a great deal on who the Gospels say he was, and how much of this we can rely on as historical, and how much of it was added later for various reasons. Christianity is a very complex religion, and has a very complex history. I personally find it fascinating, but I think if I were Moslem I would find it daunting as well.

I do not want to add to your troubles, or your heap of books, but I have a very good introduction to the NT, which is called, amazingly enough, An Introduction to the New Testament, by Raymond Brown. This presents a very clear, objective and erudite picture of the books of the NT, their composition and their authenticity, and the complexities of the time when they were written and how the authors addressed those complexities.

I am not sure if it will help to take a look at it or not, but I find it a very good place to start.

I wish you well on your journey of discovery.

 

[Sketcher]

One thing that is going to need to happen is you need to give the Gospels and NT the benefit of the doubt if you really want to learn at all. After all, if you can't trust the primary source material as accurate, you're not going to get very far in understanding it.

 

[talitha]

Raul, if you ask some specific questions, I'm sure there are plenty of us who would be glad to answer them. (Like, What does he mean by......?)

blessings
tal

 

[RC1262]

G'day Raul7,

Hi Everyone,

I happen to be Muslim and since we believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) as a Prophet I wanted to learn more about his history. Naturally, I decided to take Historical Jesus at University and at first I thought it would be a relatively neutral class that just relied on present-day evidence, etc. But I was in for a surprise.

Anyways, to cut a long story short we are now supposed to read 'Interpreting the NT' by H. Conzelmann and it requires a good foundation of Christianity, Christian texts and theology. I am currently lost in the midst of all the texts it refers back to in every single sentence.

Anyone read this book? Can you guide me through parts of it?

Apart from talking to your lecturer for help, what exactly are you confused about? It is difficult indeed to help you when we don't know what you need help on...

From,
Scorch (a.k.a. RC-1262).

 

[Confess]

I recommend that you ask God to open your spiritual mind to your lesson about the new testiment and trust that he will grant you your request the moment you ask. Then read John and see if your comprehension is better. If it is then your study materials should be much easier to get through.

The Guide

How can that happen when he is spiritually dead? He is a Muslim who rejects the truth. If we reject the truth no matter what our faith we then are spiritually dead.

Spiritual life comes with faith in Jesus. We are all dead in our sins until we become alive in Christ. All other works are sinful reasonings which will cause this person a lot of headaches.

Unfortunetly, looking at a college for understanding about who Jesus is will lead to more confusion then what it is worth.

The fact is that there is only one place to understand who Jesus is and his history. Trying to find that information among those who don't even believe in or about him only leads to confusion.

If you want to learn more about him, you must search both the Scriptures and ask theologians that specialize in history.

 

[Catherineanne]

How can that happen when he is spiritually dead? He is a Muslim who rejects the truth. If we reject the truth no matter what our faith we then are spiritually dead.

Spiritual life comes with faith in Jesus.

I think your language is a little unfortunate, if not totally unBiblical.

If the soul of any person is dead then it is dead, but this cannot be said with certainty until the body and spirit are also dead, and it can only then be said with certainty by God. If, however, the soul of any person is capable of being aroused by the message of Christ, then it would be preferable to use a word such as 'asleep' or 'dormant' rather than dead. Nobody alive can be said to have a dead soul.

It is not for any of us to judge the state of any brother or sister's soul. Clearly, if this man has been touched by something to seek further knowledge of Jesus, then it is perfectly compatible with our faith to understand that something as being the Holy Spirit, and the place where he has been touched as his soul. If he is seeking then he has rejected nothing, and deserves no more condemnation than any other seeker.

Therefore, a little less of the extremist black and white language, and a little more Christian acceptance would seem to be appropriate here.

And, fwiw, it is not only Christians who are capable of having or leading spiritual lives. The only thing that Christians can claim that other faiths cannot is an intimate relationship with God as Father. But other faiths can certainly share in spirituality. Just not Christ's spirituality.

 

[heron]

Just the fact that you're interested in learning more shows good intent.

There are very mixed experiences in college classes, but I wouldn't assume this will give you an inaccurate picture unless the teacher seems to have a chip on their shoulder.

 

[Confess]

I think your language is a little unfortunate, if not totally unBiblical.

If the soul of any person is dead then it is dead, but this cannot be said with certainty until the body and spirit are also dead, and it can only then be said with certainty by God. If, however, the soul of any person is capable of being aroused by the message of Christ, then it would be preferable to use a word such as 'asleep' or 'dormant' rather than dead. Nobody alive can be said to have a dead soul.

It is not for any of us to judge the state of any brother or sister's soul. Clearly, if this man has been touched by something to seek further knowledge of Jesus, then it is perfectly compatible with our faith to understand that something as being the Holy Spirit, and the place where he has been touched as his soul. If he is seeking then he has rejected nothing, and deserves no more condemnation than any other seeker.

Therefore, a little less of the extremist black and white language, and a little more Christian acceptance would seem to be appropriate here.

And, fwiw, it is not only Christians who are capable of having or leading spiritual lives. The only thing that Christians can claim that other faiths cannot is an intimate relationship with God as Father. But other faiths can certainly share in spirituality. Just not Christ's spirituality.

Re-read. I did not say their soul was dead. If it were dead then that person would also be dead.

I stated that he is spiritually dead. This is also what Anglicans teach. It is called original sin. We are born with it until baptized where we become spiritually alive IN CHRIST.

Also, you are correct that non-christians can lead spiritual lives as well. But their spiritual father is death ... the devil. Only Christians are spiritually alive.

 

[heron]

What Catherineanne is probably trying to say -- your good intentions came out sounding like an insult, to someone who kindly came asking for help.

 

[Confess]

What Catherineanne is probably trying to say -- your good intentions came out sounding like an insult, to someone who kindly came asking for help.

I don't understand. Jesus was far more blunt calling people names that no one here would ever use.

The fact is that all of us are spiritually dead until we are alive in Christ. This is just a fact, not an insult. It is not personal since we all deal with it.

 

[heron]

Raul is a Muslim seeking truth, not rejecting it. We were all at the place of seeking at one time, and God was very patient with us. He didn't insult where we were at the time, but lifted us gradually toward Himself.

We don't mysteriously know all at once and become enlightened and arrive at a point of perfect understanding. We are always learning and growing. Christ offered us freedom from our bondages.


Here's a review of one of Conzelmann's books:

Hans Conzelmann's commentary on 1 Corinthians...was at one point considered something of an authoritative work and is often referred to in subsequent books and articles. His work is known particularly for the connections he draws between the problems facing the Corinthian church and the influence of Gnosticism and Hellenistic mystery religions.....

In recent years, many of Conzelmann's theses concerning 1 Corinthians have fallen out of favor with biblical scholars, especially his focus on Gnosticism, and been replaced with a view that places more emphasis on St. Paul's own theology and that favors the wisdom tradition of Judaism over Gnoticism and Hellenism.

 

[MethodMan]

Closed