Interpretation of scripture for Clintos

[Clintos]

I would like to know the interpretation of Titus 1:7-14 but specifically verse 10

What do they mean?

verse 10

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision.

 

[dysert]

The passage is giving some of the qualifications to be a bishop/elder. Verse 10 simply voices the fact that many people are unruly, shoot their mouths off without thinking, and deceive people. Paul calls out especially the Jews on this. So, all the more reason to pay attention to the qualifications he gives since there are lot of low-lifes vying for a position of leadership because of greed.

 

[Greg J.]

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, (bold mine, Titus 1:5, NASB)

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many ¹rebellious men, ²empty talkers and deceivers, ³especially those of the circumcision, (Titus 1:9b-10, NASB)

Paul is trying to help Titus know how to identify people that could be appointed as elders. Paul has experienced a lot of people who are teaching a false gospel, so an elder needs to understand the gospel correctly, be able to refute those that have an incorrect understanding, those that are ¹rebellious (rejecting God by rejecting the truth), ²those that speak empty philosophies, and those that are intentionally trying to cause harm with falseness—especially those that are preaching ³that Jews must still obey the Law.

 

[Clintos]

I see, I am a new Christian and I am wondering when they say circumcision do they mean Jew of the old testament? Sorry if I am wrong.

 

[dysert]

"those of the circumcision" is usually talking about the Jews under the covenant (OT or NT).

 

[Greg J.]

Read Acts 15:1-35 and Galatians 2 and on, or if you can invest the time, read the whole book of Galatians. And if you're loving it, read Romans 2-4, Ephesians 2:11-, Philippians 3:3, and Colossians 2:11-17. They're all teaching that we have fulfilled the Law requiring circumcision by faith in Jesus Christ, and therefore don't need to be physically circumcised. The Circumcision Group were Jews preaching that salvation also required being circumcised—or interpreted more broadly, keeping the commands given to Moses by God (Mosaic Law in the first 5 books of the Bible).

No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God. (Romans 2:29, 1984 NIV)

 

[Clintos]

So who is Paul was he a Jew and now he is not? sorry for the basic questions. I have schizo affective disorder which means I have delusions and I would like to know the basic too. It help put things into context

 

[Greg J.]

Being circumcised was necessary to be included by God as part of being a descendant of Abraham and inheriting the promises God gave to Abraham. Paul was a Jew by blood and by religion, but after Jesus appeared to him (Acts 9), Paul became a Christian, but was still Jewish by blood. It was a confusing time since being a Jew by blood and by religion were the same group of people (mostly), but now because of Jesus, their religion was (sort of) being thrown away. It was an identity crisis for many.

 

[Clintos]

So say for example I circumcision myself at 37, I would not be a jew right? because the blood line is not in me? or it might of been in me but got lost through generations?

 

[Soyeong]

I would like to know the interpretation of Titus 1:7-14 but specifically verse 10

What do they mean?

verse 10

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision.

According to Isaiah 45:25, all Israel will be saved, so some Jews mistakenly thought that meant that Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes in order to become saved, which meant going through the process of circumcision, and which meant joining the group of people who agreed at Sinai to do everything that Moses said (Exodus 20:19, Deuteronomy 5:22-28). Moses had the authority to make rulings about how the Torah should be obeyed and by the 1st century this authority was passed down to those who sat in Moses' seat (Matthew 23:2-4) and it had become a large body of oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences, which the Pharisees were placing on the backs of the people, which would become later recorded in the Mishna. So by agreeing to become circumcised, Gentiles were agreeing to become Jews and to live as Jews according to all of the oral laws of the Pharisees and doing this all for the purpose of becoming saved (Acts 15:1).

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition (Deuteronomy 4:2). Furthermore, Jesus said that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), he quoted Isaiah 29:13 to say that they worshipped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and he called them hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own tradition (Mark 7:6-9), so the role of these oral laws was a major source of conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees, just as it was between his followers and the Pharisees in Acts 15, Galatians, and in Titus 1:10.

 

[Greg J.]

1. A person can be Jewish by his parents both being Jewish (descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob).

2. A person can have Judaism as their religion.

3. A person can be raised in a Judaic culture, celebrating certain holidays, eating certain foods, etc.

We use the word "Jew" or "Jewish" for all three which is why it is all confusing, but you can't control #1 and #3. #2 is your only concern—where you have chosen to follow Jesus (be a Christian). To be a Jew (as in Judaism), you would need to reject Jesus (which Scripture teaches results in not being saved), be circumcised and start obeying the Mosaic Law from your heart (which is impossible for anyone to do, so Jews have modified their religion so they can).

In reality Christians should not be choosing to be circumcised to be "more right" with God, because being circumcised or not being circumcised doesn't have anything to do with being righteous in God's eyes.

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. (1 Corinthians 7:19, 1984 NIV)

 

[Soyeong]

For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, (bold mine, Titus 1:5, NASB)

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. For there are many ¹rebellious men, ²empty talkers and deceivers, ³especially those of the circumcision, (Titus 1:9b-10, NASB)

Paul is trying to help Titus know how to identify people that could be appointed as elders. Paul has experienced a lot of people who are teaching a false gospel, so an elder needs to understand the gospel correctly, be able to refute those that have an incorrect understanding, those that are ¹rebellious (rejecting God by rejecting the truth), ²those that speak empty philosophies, and those that are intentionally trying to cause harm with falseness—especially those that are preaching ³that Jews must still obey the Law.

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake not my law.

The Bible defines sound doctrine as not forsaking God's Law, so those who by encouraging others with sound doctrine, the elders were teaching obedience to the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law reveals to us what sin is and Jesus came with the message to repent for our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so to teach false Gospel would be to teach against repenting from our sins in disobedience to the Mosaic Law. Paul Gospel message also involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed (Romans 15:18-19), so our Gospel message should not depart from that.

 

[Soyeong]

So say for example I circumcision myself at 37, I would not be a jew right? because the blood line is not in me? or it might of been in me but got lost through generations?

The Bible doesn't list instructions for how a Gentile is to become a Jewish proselyte, through as part of a man-made tradition circumcision is straightforwardly part of it. However, roughly 80% of the men in the US are circumcised, so unless you would consider them all to be Jews, then there is more involved than that. We even have a recorded argument among rabbis in regard to whether circumcision, immersion, or both were required in order to become a full proselyte. Usually a Gentile God-fearers would spend time learning the Jews about God and how to serve Him and then go through the ceremony when they were ready, though some some chose not to become circumcised. However, Paul took the position that Jews should stay Jews and Gentiles should stay Gentiles (1 Corinthians 7:20-21). In essence, if God had wanted someone to be a Jew, then he would have made them a Jew, and vice versa, but rather God has roles for both Jews and Gentiles than would not be filled if all Gentiles became Jews.

 

[Greg J.]

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake not my law.

The Bible defines sound doctrine as not forsaking God's Law, so those who by encouraging others with sound doctrine, the elders were teaching obedience to the Mosaic Law.

The 70 disagreed with your interpretation of the Hebrew.

δώρον γαρ αγαθόν δωρούμαι υμίν τον εμόν λόγον μη εγκαταλίπητε
[gift For a good I present to you]; [my word you should not abandon]
What should not be abandoned is God's logos which is more general than the Law.

For I give you sound teaching; Do not abandon my instruction. (Proverbs 4:2, 1984 NASB)

The Mosaic Law reveals to us what sin is and Jesus came with the message to repent for our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so to teach false Gospel would be to teach against repenting from our sins in disobedience to the Mosaic Law.

Not repenting from our sins is not disobedience to the Mosaic Law. God said this to Cain after his improper offering to God instead of condemning him.

“If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” (Genesis 4:7, 1984 NASB)

We see what this means to God in Ezekiel 18:21 and others.

Paul Gospel message also involved bringing the Gentiles to full obedience in word and in deed (Romans 15:18-19), so our Gospel message should not depart from that.

Are you telling Clintos that he needs to obey the Mosaic Law, and that we should teach others to obey the Mosaic Law?

 

[Soyeong]

The 70 disagreed with your interpretation of the Hebrew.

δώρον γαρ αγαθόν δωρούμαι υμίν τον εμόν λόγον μη εγκαταλίπητε
[gift For a good I present to you]; [my word you should not abandon]
What should not be abandoned is God's logos which is more general than the Law.

For I give you sound teaching; Do not abandon my instruction. (Proverbs 4:2, 1984 NASB)

A more general term does not impact how I used it because it is still inclusive of the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law is God's Word, but God's Word is broader than the Mosaic Law, but still includes, and the same God with instruction.

Not repenting from our sins is not disobedience to the Mosaic Law. God said this to Cain after his improper offering to God instead of condemning him.

“If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” (Genesis 4:7, 1984 NASB)

We see what this means to God in Ezekiel 18:21 and others.

There was nothing that became a sin when the Mosaic Law was given, but rather the Mosaic Law revealed which things have always been sins and will always been sins. There are many examples in Genesis, including Cain's improper offering, that show that God's Laws were already in place before they were given at Sinai. If a message does not involve repenting from doing the things that God has revealed to be sin, then it is not the Gospel message.

Are you telling Clintos that he needs to obey the Mosaic Law, and that we should teach others to obey the Mosaic Law?

Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you want to be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven or great?

 

[Greg J.]

Are you telling Clintos that he needs to obey the Mosaic Law, and that we should teach others to obey the Mosaic Law?

 

[Clintos]

Paul took the position that Jews should stay Jews and Gentiles should stay Gentiles (1 Corinthians 7:20-21).

I see, and we are all equal in Christ's eyes? Circumcision or not? Sorry for the repetitive question, it's a inferiority complex. 1 Corinthians 7:18

 

[Clintos]

A more general term does not impact how I used it because it is still inclusive of the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law is God's Word, but God's Word is broader than the Mosaic Law, but still includes, and the same God with instruction.



There was nothing that became a sin when the Mosaic Law was given, but rather the Mosaic Law revealed which things have always been sins and will always been sins. There are many examples in Genesis, including Cain's improper offering, that show that God's Laws were already in place before they were given at Sinai. If a message does not involve repenting from doing the things that God has revealed to be sin, then it is not the Gospel message.



Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you want to be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven or great?

Is this still relevant?

exodus 21:24

or has is been replaced with turn the other cheek?

How does a Christian justify revenge in regards to the new testament?

 

[Greg J.]

I've heard it preached that Exodus 21:24 was a limitation on punishment, that people were going overboard on revenge (easy for me to believe). There is no justification for revenge. We are to forgive and are accountable to God for it.

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. (Romans 12:18-19, 1984 NIV)

In the Lord's prayer, Jesus taught to pray to God:
Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (Matthew 6:12, 1984 NIV)

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14-15, 1984 NIV)

More explanation of revenge here. (I'm not familiar with the other pages on this web site.)

I recently wrote about turning the other cheek here.

 

[Soyeong]

I see, and we are all equal in Christ's eyes? Circumcision or not? Sorry for the repetitive question, it's a inferiority complex. 1 Corinthians 7:18

Never apologize for seeking knowledge. The time you should apologize is when you have a question and don't ask it.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. 7 The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

God did not chose the Jews because they were superior in any way or because they did something to earn it, so they are not superior to Gentiles, and through faith in Messiah Gentiles can also become part of God's chosen people, Israel (Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:12-19). However, I think that God did make promises specifically to the Jews and has a different role for Jews than he does for Gentiles, just as an arm is not superior to a leg, but are both necessary parts of the same body.

Is this still relevant?

exodus 21:24

or has is been replaced with turn the other cheek?

How does a Christian justify revenge in regards to the new testament?

An eye for an eye was intended to be used as a guideline for judges to judge fairly in a way where a punishment corresponded to the crime, and in order to avoid escalation. It was not meant to be used to justify personal revenge as the Pharisees were doing. Whenever Jesus quoted from Scripture, he always preceded it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from the teachers of the Law, he preceded it by saying "you have heard that it was said". So in Matthew 5, Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to God's Law or by adding his own brand new laws, but rather he was correcting what was wrongly being taught about God's Law and teaching how to correctly understand and obey it.