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So, I can ACCIDENTALLY kill as many women as I want to but I cannot intentionall kill one foetus.larryicr said:Nycky said:
It's not just cause and effect, it's also intent. With an abortion there is an intent to kill, when there is an impregnation there is not.
By arguing i mean arguing for a point, not "fighting".In no way am I arguing...All I am saying is that if women chooses to sin it is her own choice to make with out us judging her. We are not in the same place as a women who is faced with this decsion so how can we judge her? Im not being hateful to anyone who opposes abortion, nor am I judging them. My posts are only stating that we need to help these women and not condem them, how is that wrong or judgemental? I have not already judged if I believe it is a sin, I am to dislike the sin not the sinner.
We are not supposed to sin nor are we supposed to judge so just because someone sins (abortion) we should sin (judge) also?
That's not at all what i said.So, I can ACCIDENTALLY kill as many women as I want to but I cannot intentionall kill one foetus.
larryicr said:That's not at all what i said.
I said that it is not only cause and effect, but also intent. Now you are acting like i said it is only intent.
My point is that you must take cause, effect, and intent into account.
If you accidentally kill someone you do not get as harsh a punishment if you kill someone with intent. That's not only true biblically, but also in our court systems.
Num 35:11 - then you shall select for yourselves cities to be your cities of refuge, that the manslayer who has killed any person unintentionally may flee there.
P.S. If you "want" to kill the women, as you posted, then it is not an "accident".
If someone attacks you or your loved ones with a gun, don't you have the right to defend yourself and your family and to kill the attacker if necessary?
1. Yes, we should assume it's not God's will when a pregnancy is terminated. God doesn't use humans as his agents to carry out actions that are in conflict with His will.Nycky said:G-d uses humans as G-d's agents in many things. Should we assume that it is not G-d's will when a pregnancy is terminated?
Should a man faced with death at the hands of another defend himself up to and including killing his attacker? After all, his possible death is a tragic thing but so is the death of the assailant.
I know of many men, and some women, who far from laying down their lives for their children, endanger these young lives. Whether through abandonment, and neglect or direct violence and abuse.
Okay, one living child, about five and and an "unborn child," which one would you sacrifice?
Nyc
Because he gave us the freedom to choose, and we sometimes choose to do things that are against His will. Just as we have the freedom to choose to steal, lie, cheat, gossip, etc. I think most of us would agree those things are against God's will, yet they are possible.Seeking... said:Why is abortion even possible if it is truly against God's will?
We can be spared God's judgement because others have judged us? or if we only judge ourselves? I thought that no matter what we will all be judged in the end? If being a Christian means that I am comanded to judge others then maybe I am in the wrong place. We are supposed to love one another and lift each other up not condem each other. If I wanted to hurt people I would join a "gang" or something. I can believe that abortion is a sin without judging the person committing the sin. I dont run around protesting or anything of that sort so how am I judging it? Because I believe it? So is believing a sin? If a women comes to me saying she has had an abortion I dont say to her "oh you have sinned! Now you must beg for forgivness!" I keep my feelings to myself and focus on her feelings, after all she is the one in despair not me. I do think abortion is wrong in most cases, but more than that I believe that all things happen for a reason. No matter what I believe, my heart is open enough to love and care for those who face this decsion. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. It's not about me and my beliefs, its about helping my brothers and sisters in their time of need.larryicr said:By arguing i mean arguing for a point, not "fighting".
I did not judge the woman either, i judged the sin. I said you were judging simply because you did judge the abortion as sin - that is judging.
I never condemned the women - i condemned the sin.
If you think judging is a sin, why are we commanded to judge?
1 Cor 5:12 - For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 6:2-3 - Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
The reason we judge is out of love, so that the person will be spared from God's judgement. You seem to be saying you want God to judge them.
1 Cor 11:31 - But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
So, G-d can will thousands of people dead, but would never will the death of one foetus?homewardbound said:1. Yes, we should assume it's not God's will when a pregnancy is terminated. God doesn't use humans as his agents to carry out actions that are in conflict with His will.
The foetus maake not take a knife to a woman, but its prescence in her womb can do harm to her and in some cases, threaten her life. If that's not an attack, however unconscious, I don't know what is.2. You're comparing apples to oranges here since a fetus can't attack a woman, but I'll answer your question anyway. If a person is being attacked, of course it's ok to defend yourself, even if it escalates to the point of having to kill your assailant. Granted, it would be tragic, but that's the risk someone takes when they attack someone with the intent to kill.
It a Jewish tradition that honors my relationship with the Creator and my personal expression.By the way what's this thing about not typing out the word God? I've seen that in a few other places.
No, that's not what I'm saying. You're trying to make inferences that aren't there.Nycky said:So, G-d can will thousands of people dead, but would never will the death of one foetus?
Through the bible..that's how He speaks to us.How can you propose to know the will of G-d in all cases?
Please...let's not compare the innocent existence of a fetus with an intentional act of violence.The foetus maake not take a knife to a woman, but its prescence in her womb can do harm to her and in some cases, threaten her life. If that's not an attack, however unconscious, I don't know what is.
I chose not to answer because you provided no circumstances in your question, making it completely ambiguous.I note, that you chose not to address my question about choosing between a living child and a foetus. You find it easier to dismiss the life of an adult woman than that of any child? How sad for the women in your life if this is true.
That's a ridiculous notion, and an insult to men in general. Not worth further comment.The Nation of Islam, a black Muslim movement in the US, has been honest enough to say that "the woman is mans field to produce his nation." I wish Conservatice Christian men would be honest enough to admit that they agree with this sentiment.
Cool!It a Jewish tradition that honors my relationship with the Creator and my personal expression.
I respect your opinion but I whole-heartedly disagree. I don't believe that it is against God's will. Regarding biological matters - there are many things that we can't choose or control - perhaps because God considered them too important - why allow us this choice if it is so awful. I mean really - how many abortions do you think have been committed since the beginning of time? Every culture out there has at least one non-medical approach to ending a pregnancy. I would imagine it is either a part of God's will or he at least doesn't care.homewardbound said:Because he gave us the freedom to choose, and we sometimes choose to do things that are against His will. Just as we have the freedom to choose to steal, lie, cheat, gossip, etc. I think most of us would agree those things are against God's will, yet they are possible.
Not if she chooses not to Believe in Him..larryicr said:Khrissy78,
You say that if a woman who had an abortion came to you you would not try to lead her to repentance?That's a terrible thing to do to a person.
Yes, but again I wont push my beliefs on someone whos not ready or willing to believe. All that will do is put distance between that person and myself and the point is to be there not to push them away.larryicr said:If you believe abortion is a sin, don't you think that she has distanced herself from God by committing the sin? Yet you will not lift one finger to try and help her get back into communion with God?
Yes, I will pray for her...larryicr said:Yet you will not lift one finger to try and help her get back into communion with God?
What a cruel thing to say...larryicr said:That is not love.
By keeping my feelings to myself I meant that I would not sit there and make her feel worse by telling her how I think she was wrong etc..larryicr said:Love is not always easy. Love leads to the truth, not the supression of it (ie: keeping your feelings to yourself).
I wont try to lead anyone where they dont want to go just because it is what I believe. If the person I am helping is a believer or if she wants to be then yes, I would do the same.larryicr said:I show her the forgiveness in Christ and try to lead her into repentance.
Yes, Praise God! For He has lifted a few burdens off my chest so far.larryicr said:When she comes to Christ and the weight of her burden is lifted, it is a wonderful thing - Praise God!
God also made us with a strong sense of self-preservation that, while still wrong to kill, might make such an act justified.Nycky said:G-d uses humans as G-d's agents in many things. Should we assume that it is not G-d's will when a pregnancy is terminated?
Should a man faced with death at the hands of another defend himself up to and including killing his attacker? After all, his possible death is a tragic thing but so is the death of the assailant.
Nyc
I think you misunderstand. You seem to equate me telling someone [what i consider] truth as "pushing" them. Are you really suggeting that if i tell someone "my" truth it's pushing them into something?Yes, but again I wont push my beliefs on someone whos not ready or willing to believe.
Forgive me if this is a somewhat harsh illustration. If a child is born severely retarded, with no chance of what we would consider a normal life, that's a biological matter over which the mother had no choice or control, right? If she chose to do so, she could abandon that little one in an alley (or worse), couldn't she? I hope you would agree that's not in accordance with God's will. And yet He allows that choice, doesn't He?Seeking... said:I respect your opinion but I whole-heartedly disagree. I don't believe that it is against God's will. Regarding biological matters - there are many things that we can't choose or control - perhaps because God considered them too important - why allow us this choice if it is so awful. I mean really - how many abortions do you think have been committed since the beginning of time? Every culture out there has at least one non-medical approach to ending a pregnancy. I would imagine it is either a part of God's will or he at least doesn't care.
larryicr said:Khrissy78,
I think you misunderstand. You seem to equate me telling someone [what i consider] truth as "pushing" them. Are you really suggeting that if i tell someone "my" truth it's pushing them into something?
I guess we can't talk with people at all then.
There is no such thing as "my" truth versus "your" truth. Truth is truth, if our truths do not match up, one of us does not have the truth.
I can only speak of the truth that i know, i can never talk from someone else's "truth" - that's for them to speak from.
Besides all of that, i don't force people into anything - i simply tell them what i believe to be the truth. Why would i keep the truth from them?
Once I tell them, normally it evolves into a conversation and much healing. But if it just stops there because they don't want to talk about it or they don't think that what i am saying is truth, then i just leave it there.
Why would i push anything? I can't change anyone's heart, only God can. God tells me to tell people the truth - especially the truth about Him. Once i tell them, my job is done. The rest is up to God.
It's a hard thing for me to grasp how you can tell me i'm pushing things onto people and insinuating judgement on me, all the while releasing from judgment anyone who pushes death onto their own child.
First, it is erroneously changing the topic from telling someone the truth to "pushing" someone. The implication that i push people is simply invalid.I am sorry that you feel I was judging you...I said "I" would never push anyone..I dont see why you think that I am passing judgement on you
I never asked you why you don't "push" things onto people. What i asked you was basically why you don't tell people what you believe is the truth. I just don't understand why you keep truth to yourself. I asked nothing about forcing someone or pushing ideas onto people, simply about expressing the truth as you see it.When you post asking why would I not do this or that then my only reaction is to tell you why, not to judge you.
What you may consider a lack of convienience, that woman may consider an issue of survival.DrBubbaLove said:Are you really prepared to equate someone defending their own or someone else's life, with the decision to end life based on as little as a lack of convenience?
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