Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

Archivist said:

So a woman shouldn't have the right to an abortion even if her life is in danger?

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Her life may be in 'danger' but when an abortion happens, someone always dies. No, there is never a reason.

CrownCaster said:

Her life may be in 'danger' but when an abortion happens, someone always dies. No, there is never a reason.

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New rule. Whenever a woman dies in childbirth, we kill the man who impregnated her. After all, it's cause and effect, if he did not get her pregnant, she would not have died. The method of death has to involve pain matched to the level of the woman.

Nyc

Nycky said:

New rule. Whenever a woman dies in childbirth, we kill the man who impregnated her. After all, it's cause and effect, if he did not get her pregnant, she would not have died. The method of death has to involve pain matched to the level of the woman.

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It's not just cause and effect, it's also intent. With an abortion there is an intent to kill, when there is an impregnation there is not.

CrownCaster said:

Her life may be in 'danger' but when an abortion happens, someone always dies. No, there is never a reason.

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Isn't it convenient that you--a man--have apparently decided that a woman should not have the opportunity to preserve her own life and that a pregnancy is thereby her death sentence.

CrownCaster said:

My stance? Abortion is murder 100% of the time. There are NO exceptions. There are NO good reasons to play God. A woman who has an abortion needs to know two things.

1- She has committed murder to one of Gods prescious little ones that He entrusted to her

2- There is forgiveness in Christ for doing so.

Whatever has happened to a person, it is NEVER the baby' fault.

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Yes, there are exceptions.

What a women decides to do with her body (icluding the fetus inside it) is HER choice. It is not for anyone else to judge except GOD. Do you realize how many abused and neglected children there would be if abortion was not a choice? How many would be in foster cares? Everyone makes mistakes some are greater than others but they are still mistakes. Yes, there are ways of preventing pregnancy but as I said we all make mistakes.

Until you are faced with a desion such as abortion then your "stance" really has no ground. You cannot call a women a MURDERER because of a choice she made to not carry out her pregnancy. For most women this descion is one that is extremley emotional and it affects her for the rest of her life. Not all women walk out of abortion clinics saying "Yippie its gone!".

There is forgivness in Christ and He is the One and Only judge. He knows the hearts of the women who choose abortion and whether they did it out of good or evil.

Again, Women who have an abortion are not MURDERERS!

I found this on a website, I think all should read:

"Judge not, lest ye be judged." How often have we heard that warning? Yet it is such an easy one to forget, especially when another person's sins seem to be so grievously wrong, so obviously wrong. Sometimes we can't help but ask ourselves, "How could anyone do such a thing?"

It's so easy to think that the sins of others are the result of terrible selfishness, callousness, moral bankruptcy, or a deep flaw in their character. But if the truth were known, under the right circumstances, the right pressures, the right fears, we are all weak and susceptible to sin--even the gravest of sins.

"There but for the grace of God go I." This is how we must look on those who committed sins which we abhor. We must look on them not with an air of superiority or condemnation, but with an attitude of humble sympathy, empathy, and compassion, being thankful to God that we have been spared their great trials and falls.

In humility we must all remember that without the grace of God, each one of us is capable of any sin. If we have been spared knowing this sin or that, it is the grace of God alone which has protected us, not any virtuous excellence of our own character. We are all flawed. We all make bad judgments. We all make decisions in haste, ignorance, and confusion. We all have made bad decisions based not on moral reflection, but on the basis of emotions such as fear and despair.

Another reason we should not judge others is that we are in no position to judge their culpability, their personal responsibility for a sin. For example, stealing a man's wallet is a grave sin which always offends God--that is, it is never approved by God. But if a young child, such as Dickens's Oliver Twist, is told by a trusted adult that taking the wallet of a merchant is a "game," the child's culpability is lessened, or even eliminated, by ignorance, or even uncertainty, about what is right or wrong. Or if, instead of being ignorant, Oliver had been threatened with injury to himself or a loved one unless he stole the merchant's wallet, that, too, would lessen or even eliminate his guilt because then his decision to steal was not truly a free choice.

In either case, the act of stealing is objectively sinful. Let us make no mistake about that. Stealing, under any circumstance, offends God. But because God understands when our choices to sin are the result of coercive pressures, confusion, or ignorance, He may not hold us fully responsible for the consequence of our actions.

In this way, God is like any good father or mother who knows that we must judge the behavior of our children with both firmness and compassion. Parents know that it is important to always disapprove of acts which are objectively wrong, yet, at the same time, they understand that their children may not always be fully responsible for their actions. This knowledge tempers both their judgment and punishment of their children.

Another way of looking at this is to remember that we should always condemn acts which are morally wrong, but we should never condemn the persons who commit these acts because we can never know what was in their minds or hearts that may have lessened their culpability.

To live our lives in defense of the truth, we must be able and willing to judge the morality of acts. But the judgment of individuals must always be left to God. He alone knows the hearts and minds of us all. He alone knows how to judge how culpable we are for any of our actions.

The old saying that we should "hate the sin, but love the sinner" is intended to remind us that we must be compassionate and understanding. Indeed, out of humility and generosity, we should always assume, and pray, that the sins of others are mitigated by some sort of ignorance or lack of freedom which will lessen their culpability in the eyes of God.

This reminder that we should not judge others is especially important with regard to the issue of abortion. It is extremely unfortunate that at least a few pro-lifers have become so preoccupied by the horrible reality of abortion that they immediately assume that those who have abortions are horrible people. It's simply not true. It is even extremely unfair. The women and men who choose abortion are often acting out of ignorance or fear, or under tremendous pressures.

Indeed, studies show that 70 percent of the women choosing abortion believe it is morally wrong. This fact alone tells us that women are choosing abortion not because they think it is the right thing to do, but because they think, due to whatever pressures they are facing, that it is the only thing they can do. They feel trapped. Consider, for example, this testimony from an eighteen-year-old girl whom we will call Tracy:

My family would not support my decision to keep my baby. My boyfriend said he would give me no emotional or financial help whatsoever. All the people who mattered to me told me to abort. When I said I didn't want to, they started listing all the reasons why I should. They said it would be detrimental to my career, and my health, and that I would have no social life and no future with men. Could I actually do it alone? I started feeling like maybe I was crazy to want to keep it.

I finally just told everyone that I would have the abortion just to get them off my back. But inside, I still didn't want to have the abortion. Unfortunately, when the abortion day came, I shut off my inside feelings. I was scared to not do it because of how my family and boyfriend felt. I'm so angry at myself for giving in to the pressure of others. I just felt so alone in my feelings to have my baby.

Was Tracy responsible for her decision to have an abortion? Yes. But was she fully culpable for that decision? No. She was faced with tremendous pressures and confusion. In her story we see that Tracy had no support to help her do what her heart told her was right. Instead, she was being "socially aborted"; she was being cut off from all of the social support she needed and expected from her family, friends, and boyfriend. She was being made to choose between her love for her baby and her love for everyone else in her life. What a terrible choice! What an unfair choice. But it is a choice that thousands of women face every day.

Researchers have found that well over half of the women who choose abortion would have been willing to carry their children to term if they had received support to do so by the important people in their lives. But without this support, or indeed when faced with threats that they will lose their loved ones, it is very hard to resist the temptation to give in to abortion.

One woman who made this decision has commented that she "made the decision to be weak." She didn't decide to have an abortion so much as she decided not to resist all the pressures which were pushing her toward the abortion. For years she lived with the pain of a great self-hatred. She hated herself for being weak--too weak to stand up for her beliefs, too weak to stand up for her child.

We also know from the testimonies of women who have had abortions, and dozens of former abortionists like Dr. Bernard Nathanson and Carol Everett, that there is a tremendous amount of deceit and manipulation which goes on in abortion clinics. Women are not only denied the truth about their unborn children and about the damage abortion will cause in their lives, they are also carefully maneuvered into believing that abortion is their only choice.

After all, abortion clinics are operated to maximize profit. So-called abortion counselors are really specialists at only one thing: selling abortion. They treat abortion like a cure-all for every unplanned pregnancy. If a young woman admits, "I would really like to have this baby," the counselor is trained to identify her fears and anxieties and then push all the right buttons to convince her that the idea of having her baby is just a romantic dream. "Where will you get $6,000 to pay the hospital bills?" they ask. "How will you ever pay for food or diapers? You've already hurt your parents once, don't make it worse. Don't make yourself into a burden on everyone. Besides, you're not ready to be a parent, and who will be the one to suffer from your mistakes? Your baby."

Abortion counselors are trained to make women feel guilty about not having an abortion. Every day, young girls are made to feel that they are doing their unborn babies a favor by having an abortion. Some are even told that their desire to keep their baby is "selfish"; they are told that only by submitting to an abortion will they be acting with maturity and taking "responsibility" for their lives.

In today's society, the pressures to abort are so great that all of us should truly admire the young single women who are strong enough to stand up against those who want them to abort and say "No." It's not easy to take such a stand. It's not easy to face the judgments of others. It's not easy to be a single mother, and it's not easy to give a child you love into the hands of adopting parents. We really need to admire the courage of these young women.

And on the other hand, we really need to refrain from judging those whose courage failed them. Haven't we, too, lost our courage at times, especially at the worst of times?

We must also have the greatest of empathy and compassion for those who have chosen abortion, or been involved in abortions in any more distant way, because the impact of abortion on a person's life can be truly devastating. These women and men must live with the memory of a child they have never been able to hold. They suffer from feelings of self-doubt, lowered self-esteem, and grief. They may be their own most fierce condemners, often doubting even God's ability to forgive them. The emotional pain of those who have had abortions can be extremely intense, and it can cause all kinds of disruptions in a person's life.

In our example of Tracy, her negative reaction began immediately after her abortion. In this, her case is actually unusual, since most women don't begin to confront their post-abortion feelings for an average of five years or more after their abortion. Most women are able to push down their negative feelings, hide them, or deny them for quite a long time.

But in Tracy's case, she immediately experienced a tremendous amount of self-loathing. To her, there was never any doubt that what she had aborted was her child, a child she wanted. She simply couldn't see how she could live with herself after what she had done. So two days after her abortion, Tracy took her father's gun out of its case and held it to her mouth to commit suicide. Fortunately, she heard her father come home for lunch, and she couldn't bring herself to pull the trigger while he was in the house. So instead, she went upstairs and had lunch with him, and by the time he left, she was trembling with so much fear she couldn't do it again. It was then that she came upon the idea of trying to make up for the abortion by tricking her boyfriend into making her pregnant again.

This desire for replacement pregnancies to make up for an abortion is very common. Approximately one in three women who have had an abortion tries to become pregnant again specifically to replace the child they lost in their abortion. About 18 percent of women who abort actually become pregnant within one year of their abortion. But many times, they face the same pressures to abort that they did the first time, and so many end up having another abortion, or even a third or a fourth. For some women, repeat abortions can become a form of self-punishment. Each time they abort, they are hurting themselves and trying to harden themselves to the pain of the first.

For other women, repeat pregnancies and repeat abortions are like a reenactment of what they suffered before. Each time, they hope on some level to break free of the cycle, and sometimes they do, but sometimes they don't.

So we must understand that, when women have more than one abortion, it does not mean that they were not bothered by their first abortion. It probably means exactly the opposite. It means that their first abortion has left them so psychologically disturbed that they can't help but get into situations where they face another abortion decision. So even when a woman has had more than one abortion, we must not judge her. We must not make assumptions about her culpability for what she has done. God alone can judge her guilt.

In our dealings with those who have been involved in abortion--whether in one or thousands of abortions, as in the case of an abortion provider--we need to be generous in offering them our sympathy, understanding, and charity. We must do this because all of them, on one level or another, have been deeply bruised and battered by their abortions. By judging them harshly, we are putting up walls between them and the Church; we are driving them away from the God of Judgment instead of toward the God of Forgiveness.

If we truly desire to transform the world, then we must begin by replacing judgmentalism with charity. We must work to relieve these women and men of the shame which makes them afraid to seek reconciliation in Christ. We must be people who can listen to the words "I've had an abortion" and react, not with horror, but with compassion. To do this, we must first transform our own hearts. We must fully understand that the choice to abort is one which is filled with great doubts and pain, and those who make it are driven by fears and confusion which will maintain a hold on them for years, decades, or even a lifetime. Instead of condemnation, we need always and everywhere to offer hope to all those who have ever been involved in an abortion. We must offer them the hope that we will be understanding, not condemning. And even more importantly, we need to lead and support them in the hope that, by turning themselves over to the loving mercy of God, they can and will be fully healed and even transformed into the champions of life that God wants them to be.

DoseOFReality said:

Do we, as human beings, recognize the "thing" inside the womb as life?
When does a human being become recognized as person? and during what process of pregnancy do we define this blob of blood as life?

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That's not quite the question; the question is whether this life is a person, the answer to which turns on where we locate the source of personhood. Many of us would locate it in the brain - without a brain, it's still life, but is it a person to whom rights and responsibilities accrue?

Because if the fetus inside the womb is by definition life, then it rightfully assumes the basic human rights which includes the right to live.

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But see: Peter Singer for a dissenting view on whether we ought to grant rights in accordance with such a hard-and-fast rule. Outside of people, we tend to give out rights per a kind of sliding scale that roughly tracks brain development. He then makes the case that not doing in so in people isn't as rational as our anthrocentric framework would have it.

If the fetus is infact life, does it not have the same right as would a 5 year old boy? If so, then the difference between the 5 year old boy and the fetus would be the location.

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A cow is a life, isn't it? Why don't we grant it the same rights we grant a 5 year-old?

I always thought it was God who decided when we enter and leave this world. That goes for men, women, children, and the unborn. If a mother's life is threatened by a pregnancy it's a tragic thing, for sure, but from a biblical perspective, I can't find anything that says it's up to us to judge whether that's more tragic than taking the life of the unborn. I don't know a single mother (or father, for that matter) who wouldn't lay down her life for one of her children. Does anyone else wonder why that should change just because the child is still in the womb?

I know this issue is an emotionally-charged one, but I hope future posters will refrain from painting this as a male vs. female matter, or calling abortion murder. If you want to shame someone for what they believe, surely there's a better forum for that.

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homewardbound said:

Does anyone else wonder why that should change just because the child is still in the womb?

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Post #106 will help you to see why women and men choose abortion. It is a long one but if you read you will see what is behind the descion to have an abortion. It is not what most people think.

First, i wanted to point out that women can NOT do "whatever" they want to their own bodies, that is a very bad argument for abortion rights. She is not allowed to sell 1 of her kidneys - not even if she needs the money for food to live on.

Second, i wanted to address the idea of not judging others. Christians are called to judge things rightly.

1 Cor 6:2-3 - Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 Cor 5:12 - For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

The reason we judge others is so that God will not judge them...

1 Cor 11:31 - For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

There are certain types of things that we are not to judge others on...

Col 2:16 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

larryicr said:

First, i wanted to point out that women can NOT do "whatever" they want to their own bodies, that is a very bad argument for abortion rights. She is not allowed to sell 1 of her kidneys - not even if she needs the money for food to live on.

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I get your point but I am not speaking of selling kidneys for food, I am saying that in the case of abortion (which is the topic) it is the womans choice to do what she wants with her body (meaning the fetus inside her body).


I am not arguing soley for abortion rights, there is no doubt it is a sin. I am arguing for a womens right to choose and to not be judged because of that decsion.

Khrissy78 said:

Post #106 will help you to see why women and men choose abortion. It is a long one but if you read you will see what is behind the descion to have an abortion. It is not what most people think.

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An interesting and thought-provoking post, although I don't think it makes a compelling case for abortion. At least your posts aren't laced with anger like so many others. I appreciate that.

Lest you think I'm not sensitive to the plight many women face, that's not the case. My daughter is unmarried, part-time employed, no college or trade school education, and has had two children in less than two years by two different fathers, one of which lives 700 miles away. The three of them have a mountain of challenges ahead of them. Every argument you could make about the impact on career, social life, quality of life, etc. applies. Abortion would have made her life much easier in one sense, but she chose to act selflessly, and now has two beautiful sons. Yes, their life will be very difficult, as will my daughter's. But I can't begin to adequately describe what a pecious gift they are. My daughter would be the first to tell you that she's made some mistakes, but she'd also tell you without hesitation that she's glad she carried those two boys full term.

I am not arguing soley for abortion rights, there is no doubt it is a sin. I am arguing for a womens right to choose and to not be judged because of that decsion.

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How can you argue for someone's right to sin, and at the same time argue against someone's right to judge that sin?
If there is no doubt it is a sin, then you have already judged. That's all i am really saying, i would not claim that a woman who had an abortion is any "worse" a sinner than the rest of us. But, i think we have to call it sin - and i'm glad that's what you all it.

I welcome people judging me and bringing sins that i commit to my attention, that's how we grow in Christ. We are supposed to help each other come out of sinful lives, not just act as though nothing is wrong with the sins we are commiting.

Ps 141:5 (NASB)
Let the righteous smite me in kindness and reprove me; It is oil upon the head; Do not let my head refuse it, For still my prayer is against their wicked deeds.

larryicr said:

How can you argue for someone's right to sin, and at the same time argue against someone's right to judge that sin?
If there is no doubt it is a sin, then you have already judged. That's all i am really saying, i would not claim that a woman who had an abortion is any "worse" a sinner than the rest of us. But, i think we have to call it sin - and i'm glad that's what you all it.

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In no way am I arguing...All I am saying is that if women chooses to sin it is her own choice to make with out us judging her. We are not in the same place as a women who is faced with this decsion so how can we judge her? Im not being hateful to anyone who opposes abortion, nor am I judging them. My posts are only stating that we need to help these women and not condem them, how is that wrong or judgemental? I have not already judged if I believe it is a sin, I am to dislike the sin not the sinner.
We are not supposed to sin nor are we supposed to judge so just because someone sins (abortion) we should sin (judge) also?

Please let me say agian I am not here to be hurtful to anyones beliefs, Like you I am just giving my opinion.

homewardbound said:

An interesting and thought-provoking post, although I don't think it makes a compelling case for abortion. At least your posts aren't laced with anger like so many others. I appreciate that.

Lest you think I'm not sensitive to the plight many women face, that's not the case. My daughter is unmarried, part-time employed, no college or trade school education, and has had two children in less than two years by two different fathers, one of which lives 700 miles away. The three of them have a mountain of challenges ahead of them. Every argument you could make about the impact on career, social life, quality of life, etc. applies. Abortion would have made her life much easier in one sense, but she chose to act selflessly, and now has two beautiful sons. Yes, their life will be very difficult, as will my daughter's. But I can't begin to adequately describe what a pecious gift they are. My daughter would be the first to tell you that she's made some mistakes, but she'd also tell you without hesitation that she's glad she carried those two boys full term.

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Thanks for seeing that I am not being hateful.

I am so glad that your daughter was able to make her own descion and have her babies and that they are happy and healthy. Unfortunatly not alot of women/teens have the inner strength that your daughter has. Most women who choose to abort live their lives on the "what might have beens". Most of them probaly could have made it work, the point is that they are in despair. They cant think past the bad to see the good. I will research this but I bet most women who make this choice regret it. As one of my post said, most women are emotionally depressed after this choice. Just because one person ends up happy and healthy doesnt mean the next one will. My posts are only for the purpose of helping these women realize that they can be forgiven not just condemed and that they can find peace in Christ.

Oh one more thing...I am not trying to make a compelling case, I just want people to see that the women who have abortions are not some mean evil creatures. They are human beings with feelings and its not just a random thing for these girls, its a life long descion that will affect them for the rest of their lives.

Khrissy78 said:

As one of my post said, most women are emotionally depressed after this choice. Just because one person ends up happy and healthy doesnt mean the next one will. My posts are only for the purpose of helping these women realize that they can be forgiven not just condemed and that they can find peace in Christ.

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I couldn't agree more.

Khrissy78 said:

Oh one more thing...I am not trying to make a compelling case, I just want people to see that the women who have abortions are not some mean evil creatures. They are human beings with feelings and its not just a random thing for these girls, its a life long descion that will affect them for the rest of their lives.

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Amen. I hope nothing I post ever makes anyone feel condemned, and I would hope that no one else posting here would do anything to make someone feel like they're a murderer or evil. I'll close by saying that while I believe abortion is wrong in God's eyes, women do have that the right to make that choice....that's the prevailing law in our country. I'd like to think that one day we'll find a way to encourage and support all women coping with this decision and help them understand that there are alternatives. It might not be easy, but sometimes our actions have difficult consequences. Until then, I hope any woman who has had an abortion understands that God loves them every bit as much now as He did the day they had that abortion, just as He'll love them every day forward.

God bless.....

homewardbound said:

I always thought it was God who decided when we enter and leave this world. That goes for men, women, children, and the unborn. If a mother's life is threatened by a pregnancy it's a tragic thing, for sure, but from a biblical perspective, I can't find anything that says it's up to us to judge whether that's more tragic than taking the life of the unborn.

I know this issue is an emotionally-charged one, but I hope future posters will refrain from painting this as a male vs. female matter, or calling abortion murder. If you want to shame someone for what they believe, surely there's a better forum for that.

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G-d uses humans as G-d's agents in many things. Should we assume that it is not G-d's will when a pregnancy is terminated?

Should a man faced with death at the hands of another defend himself up to and including killing his attacker? After all, his possible death is a tragic thing but so is the death of the assailant.

I don't know a single mother (or father, for that matter) who wouldn't lay down her life for one of her children. Does anyone else wonder why that should change just because the child is still in the womb?

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I know of many men, and some women, who far from laying down their lives for their children, endanger these young lives. Whether through abandonment, and neglect or direct violence and abuse.

Okay, one living child, about five and and an "unborn child," which one would you sacrifice?

Nyc