Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

Prince Lucianus · Oct 5, 2004

A conscious being dying is certainly tragic.

Denying a fetus his right is tragic, but not comparable.
Besides, aren't they going straight to heaven?
Furthermore, from a Christian perspective as well. I hear the phrase "God has plans for me" very often.
Well, since he's obviously a deity who intervenes to show his plans, I can only assume that he had no plans for those aborted, otherwise he'd intervened.

Lucy

holyorders · Oct 5, 2004

People need to understand Catholic Christians better.

God has willed it that we have free will. If we make a "choice" to abort a baby then it is not God's will but the person's will. God permits evil to happen- He does not cause it but He allows it because He respects free will. For Christians time in life is transitory, we have opportunities to do good or evil as God allows. When we live and when we die God can punish us justly, to stop us from doing evil in this life or to send us into damnation if we die in sin. God lets us kill babies in hope that He or someone working through Him helps a person stop killing babies and repent.

So to all of you people who have had an abortion- repent because God Loves You and Wants You To Stop.
God Bless,
holyorders

geocajun · Oct 5, 2004

anunbeliever said:
Think of it from a global secular perspective. The world is overpopulated with humans. We are consuming resources too quickly and the overall quality of life is impacted. Human life has no intrinsic value. The species is not under threat of extinction.

The death of an individual human is only tragic for two possible reasons [a] the individual suffers, or other people grieve for the individual's suffering or for loss of the individual. If the individual doesnt suffer (eg in utero before it has a working nervous system and consciousness) and if the individual will not be missed by others, then theres no harm in reducing world population.

are you kidding? you realize overpopulation is a myth right?

http://www.ncpa.org/pd/pdint21.html

From the above article:

If the entire population of the world were put into the land area of Texas, each person would have an area equal to the floor space of a typical U.S. home and the population density of Texas would be about the same as Paris, France.

http://www.cuf.org/member/overpopulation.pdf

http://www.firstgen.org/essays/firstgen_myth_of_overpopulation.htm

foursquareman · Oct 5, 2004

Prince Lucianus said:
A conscious being dying is certainly tragic.

Denying a fetus his right is tragic, but not comparable.

Here is a big difference in our beliefs. I believe to lose either is the same.

Prince Lucianus said:
Besides, aren't they going straight to heaven?

Whether someone is Christian or not does not take away that person's right to live.

Prince Lucianus said:
Furthermore, from a Christian perspective as well. I hear the phrase "God has plans for me" very often.
Well, since he's obviously a deity who intervenes to show his plans, I can only assume that he had no plans for those aborted, otherwise he'd intervened.

It is not God's will that people suffer, but due to sin, suffering occurs. God does not intervene in everything. And we should not try and second guess God and say, well if we abort this fetus it must have been God's will.

God's will has been set out for us, in the guidelines written out in the bible. Whether we follow them is up to us.

Prince Lucianus · Oct 5, 2004

Why do Christians keep posting "God saved me", in a great difference off topics?
From death threatening diseases to simple household accidents etc.
That's the reason why I posted my respons the way I did.....

It's quite difficult to discuss this with so many Christians having so many views.

Still, I think religious doctrine claims that if you die before the year of reason, you get a free pass to heaven. So, from a Christian perspective, they're blessed immediately.
I still think that a fetus is comparable with something which is not conscious. Not to be rated above the life of a conscious animal.

Lucy

jesusfreak3786 · Oct 5, 2004

Humen life is sacred, whether it's one day concived or 102 years old. I don't think abortion is right in any case. If it was rape, theres adoption, If its the mothers health, Where is the trust in God? If its a Deformed baby, There are cases where they die and there are case in that they live. Either way our call as woshipers of God is to trust our father in all even if it is unpleasent. Human life is sacred no one can justify taking it. period.

jesusfreak3786 · Oct 5, 2004

Still, I think religious doctrine claims that if you die before the year of reason, you get a free pass to heaven. So, from a Christian perspective, they're blessed immediately.
I still think that a fetus is comparable with something which is not conscious. Not to be rated above the life of a conscious animal.

there is no such doctrine in christianity.

an7222 · Oct 5, 2004

Prince Lucianus said:
I still think that a fetus is comparable with something which is not conscious. Not to be rated above the life of a conscious animal.
Lucy

I agree 100% with that. And for those who do not agree, I recomend you to read the book Practical Ethics, of Peter Singer. He is very convincing about this issue.

Archivist · Oct 5, 2004

jesusfreak3786 said:
Humen life is sacred, whether it's one day concived or 102 years old. I don't think abortion is right in any case. If it was rape, theres adoption.

This is easy to say when you are not the woman who was raped and who is then forced to carry her assailant's child to term.

PHP:

If its the mothers health, Where is the trust in God?

Again, this is easy to say when you are not the woman who is facing death due to her pregnancy. If you want to make the choice that you would not have an abortion under those circumstances that's fine, but don't insist on making that choice for someone else.

If you were attacked by men carrying guns would you not try to defend yourself or would you just "trust in God."

Either way our call as woshipers of God is to trust our father in all even if it is unpleasent. Human life is sacred no one can justify taking it. period

Again, every person has a right to defend themselves, even to the point of using deadly force where necessary. A pregnant woman has just as much right to take steps to protect herself if she so chooses, just as you have the right to protect yourself against an armed attacker.

jesusfreak3786 · Oct 5, 2004

Archivist said:
Archivist said:

This is easy to say when you are not the woman who was raped and who is then forced to carry her assailant's child to term.

Click to expand...

Whats better murdering an inocent child that had nothing to do with the murder or, Carying That same child untill the day it can be odopted by somone that loves them?

Again, this is easy to say when you are not the woman who is facing death due to her pregnancy. If you want to make the choice that you would not have an abortion under those circumstances that's fine, but don't insist on making that choice for someone else.

Click to expand...

I have been in that position and I did trust in God. My oldest daughter is turning four in 6 days. I thank God often for a blessing such as her. If I hadn't trusted she may not be here now.

Again, every person has a right to defend themselves, even to the point of using deadly force where necessary. A pregnant woman has just as much right to take steps to protect herself if she so chooses, just as you have the right to protect yourself against an armed attacker.

Click to expand...

Yes every woman has the right becuase its thier chioce. But many of the chioces we as humans make are sinfull. It's not right to kill the child that God has placed in your womb. And personaly I would rather die at the hands of an murderer that to share in thier sin by murdering to protect this temporary tent called my body.

Archivist · Oct 5, 2004

Whats better murdering an inocent child that had nothing to do with the [rape] or, Carying That same child untill the day it can be odopted by somone that loves them?

That is a choice taht needs to be left to the woman who was raped. No one else should have the right to make that choice but her.

I have been in that position and I did trust in God. My oldest daughter is turning four in 6 days. I thank God often for a blessing such as her. If I hadn't trusted she may not be here now.

I'm glad that you and your daughter are both well. There are women who made the same choice that you did who are not with us any longer. That's why it must remain an individual choice for each woman.

jesusfreak3786 said:
Yes every woman has the right becuase its thier chioce. But many of the chioces we as humans make are sinfull. It's not right to kill the child that God has placed in your womb. And personaly I would rather die at the hands of an murderer that to share in thier sin by murdering to protect this temporary tent called my body.

Again, this is your choice. Remember, I am not arguing in favor of abortion. I am simply pointing out the reasons why the choice must remain with the pregnant woman.

Miss Shelby · Oct 5, 2004

from Prince Lucianus' signature said:
It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics and chemistry.(H.L. Mencken)

Just curious... are you trying to insult Catholic women, or do you just think this is funny?

Michelle

geocajun · Oct 5, 2004

Archivist said:
Again, this is your choice. Remember, I am not arguing in favor of abortion. I am simply pointing out the reasons why the choice must remain with the pregnant woman.

We delude ourselves, when we speak of taking another persons life as a "choice".
Abortion is an abuse of freedom. Abortion is a sin. Abortion is murder. Abortion is not a choice anymore than doing drugs is. Are you in favor of a womens right to choose to do drugs? and therefore it should be legal? at least in the case of drugs, she isn't directly killing her child.

jesusfreak3786 · Oct 5, 2004

Again, this is your choice. Remember, I am not arguing in favor of abortion. I am simply pointing out the reasons why the choice must remain with the pregnant woman.

This is a choice that will always remain with pregnant women, just like a choice made by a murderer or a rapest to kill or rape a victim. But its still murder and it's still rape. Its still wrong. Just becuase a mother has the choice it dosn't make it not a sin.

Archivist · Oct 5, 2004

geocajun said:
We delude ourselves, when we speak of taking another persons life as a "choice".

Wrong--we can't agree that a fetus is indeed a person. You might have decided that it is, but others obviously disagree.

Abortion is an abuse of freedom.

Not according to the United States Supreme Court.

Abortion is a sin.

Maybe, but that is between a woman and her God.

Abortion is murder.

No, murder is a legal term for an unlawful killing. Abortion is legal so it does not qualify as murder.

Abortion is not a choice anymore than doing drugs is. Are you in favor of a womens right to choose to do drugs? and therefore it should be legal? at least in the case of drugs, she isn't directly killing her child

Use of many drugs is illegal. Abortion is legal.

flicka · Oct 5, 2004

I'm always surprised when people want to take the choice away from the woman but are perfectly content to let her raise the child. Pregnancy can't be a public issue,it can't be decided by the courts or the neighbors or the church no matter how well meaning anyone may be. As sad or sinful as anyone thinks it is there is really only one person on earth who can make a decision regarding a pregnancy and that is the one who is pregnant. Anything else is unfeasible.

geocajun · Oct 5, 2004

Archivist said:
Wrong--we can't agree that a fetus is indeed a person. You might have decided that it is, but others obviously disagree.

maybe you can't agree... but God's created that person. Its clear enough to me.

Not according to the United States Supreme Court.

Are you American before your Christian?

Maybe, but that is between a woman and her God.

"maybe" ?

No, murder is a legal term for an unlawful killing. Abortion is legal so it does not qualify as murder.

abortion is not 'lawful' - it may not be illegal in our errored system of law, but that will be corrected. Either way, any crime against humanity, does not cease to be a moral crime, simply because its legal in the secular system.
Again, are you American before Christian?

geocajun · Oct 5, 2004

flicka said:
I'm always surprised when people want to take the choice away from the woman but are perfectly content to let her raise the child.

I would be happy to help any women who wants to kill her child, find an adoption agency, and help her with whatever needs she has.
I can say with no compunction, that this is stance is echoed throughout the pro-life community.

flicka · Oct 5, 2004

geocajun said:
I would be happy to help any women who wants to kill her child, find an adoption agency, and help her with whatever needs she has.
I can say with no compunction, that this is stance is echoed throughout the pro-life community.

Yes that's very nice. Now if you could just find a way of carrying the child for her there would be no problem..

foursquareman · Oct 5, 2004

flicka said:
As sad or sinful as anyone thinks it is there is really only one person on earth who can make a decision regarding a pregnancy and that is the one who is pregnant. Anything else is unfeasible.

It may be a choice that is up to the mother, but we should also make every effort to measure whether abortion is wrong or not.

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