Interesting thread

[oworm]

http://www.christianforums.com/t2772665-john-calvin-cessationisms-daddy.html

 

[Irishcat922]

Makes me want to "Peck a fight"!!

 

[rmwilliamsll]

thank you very much for the link.
one of the best things about SR.

i don't think i've ever read a charismatic thread before.
they have Calvin killing hundreds physically and the rest of history's spirit.
wow. i wonder if any of them have actually read anything of his?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Makes me want to "Peck a fight"!!

Believe me... don't try "peck a fight" in the charismatic
forum. Its not worth it. I am one of those charismatic calvinist. It is best to avoid and if you have an "useful" educational information that will benefit all, then by all means share and educate.

 

[Beoga]

Too much ad hominem arguementation and no documentation for support of anything said.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i appreciate these threads on Servetus. I think i understand the problem and it is not fundamentally religious. i've written a longish essay on the topic at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/lesson15_essay.html

but Calvin executing Servetus is equal to our own age executing Sacco and Vanzetti for treason. What it is is the preservation of the central core of required belief to belong to a society.

in Calvin's day that was the Trinity.
in our day that is capitalism vs communism (or anarchism in S&V). we still execute heretics only the universe of discourse title changes from religion to politics but it is the same thing.

the crucial difference is that we have learned not to execute theological heretics, seeing that as inconsistent with the Scriptures.

maybe someday we will learn not to execute political heretics either.

 

[inchristalone221]

I'm getting sick of participating in the discussion and I'm ready to throw up my hands and give it up.

I've read much anti-intellectual bad reasoning in my life, but this is first rate.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I'm getting sick of participating in the discussion and I'm ready to throw up my hands and give it up.

I've read much anti-intellectual bad reasoning in my life, but this is first rate.

other than in online creation-evolution debates i don't interact with not-reformed people very often. this thread has been a big eye opener about how really bad a reputation Calvin has among the general population.

what interests me, is not just how this happened, but all the evidence that he was a rather quiet, humble, and giving man.

i remember the first time i came across the "stop them from calling their dogs Calvin" speech he gave before the city council. complaining that he was awoken in the middle of the night with the neighbors yelling for their dogs!!!!

one of my son's names is Calvin.
he was the proverbial problem child. i remember people telling us that the only kids name they knew was Calvin because we yelled it so often. in fact, one time i yelled at Calvin at the swapmeet and the buyer at my tables answered --- Yes, how did you know my name was Calvin? he became a good friend.

but can you imagine the problem.
lots of dogs in Geneva were called "calvin"
tell me that is a sign of theocracy.....

not!

 

[Beoga]

I'm getting sick of participating in the discussion and I'm ready to throw up my hands and give it up.

I've read much anti-intellectual bad reasoning in my life, but this is first rate.

I just wanted to say that you have done an excellent done giving a reasonable defense and doing it in a respectful fashion.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I just wanted to say that you have done an excellent done giving a reasonable defense and doing it in a respectful fashion.

you are right.
reps done.
it is hard to enter into such places and carry it off well. thanks for the effort.

 

[holeinone]

When they can not argue the truthy of reformation doctrine they seek to discredit it by means of discrediting one of the messengers.

It only shows their inability to discern the word.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

since i can't answer there, i'll write here *grin*

Good job, VW. Still, I doubt a true-Calvinist will accept historical facts (not interpretations), like documents, letters from Calvin, etc., about John Calvin and will choose to believe that they are just the product of detractors. If Calvin could be so wrong about something so simple and fundamental as terrorism and murder, there is always the fear that he might also be wrong in some of his more complex theological suppositions.

this is simply not true.
i quoted the apology that Calvinist Churches put in Geneva in 1903. Calvin was a product of his age, in several ways he even exceed expectations on these issues.

He was still a product of Christendom type of thinking and the Constantinian synthesis, it was generations later only in the US that the reformed began to teach
scottish philosophy, especially common sense and its effect on moral philosophy, great, rejection of divine right of kings, and religious liberty for dissenters pg 127
from: http://rmwilliamsjr.livejournal.com/179847.html
my reading notes on _John Witherspoon and the founding of the American Republic_
Jeffry H. Morrison
extending religious liberty to dissenters, to fight against the flow that the magistrate ought to enforce the first tablet of the law with civil penalities doesn't come easily to the reformed. The issue is still alive in the church with theonomy and recontructionism.

the difference between how i react to Calvin's execution of Servetus and how those over there do, is that i wish to understand why, where in his theology is the key to those beliefs that lead to it(the execution).

the difference is that to them, he is an unrepentant murderer and his theology is just cast off as completely contaminated, with me, i'd like the opportunity to cast out that little piece of the theology that allowed this inconsistency to happen, so it won't happen again in the church. i want to learn from history, not to merely discard it, for the lessons have come at literally too high of a cost to neglect their words to us.

big difference.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

just a point of information.

is Calvin the source theologian for cessionism?

 

[inchristalone221]

Alright, I answered the endless and out of context proof-text fest this time, now it's someone elses turn.

is Calvin the source theologian for cessionism?

Not to the best of my knowledge. I believe Augustine was a cessationist. And we must make clear that one can believe in the cessation of certain gifts but not others.

I personally believe the gift of apostleship is no longer with us. I must say that the gift of prophecy has diminished greatly, as has that of tongues. This does not mean I don't believe in the gifts, I just see them in a Biblical light.

 

[nill]

 

[JimfromOhio]

It is amusing !!