Inter-religious conflict

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 2, 2003

Truth is truth regardless of opinion. And that's what separates truth from belief.

Moreover, there are many people who will twist scripture to make it mean what they want it to mean. People have all kinds of motives for interpreting scripture. A Christian is someone who wears Christ's name rightly. And the authority is God, not man.

Regarding the ACLU, it is people who are *not* Christians who feel this organization has served Christians fairly.

The constitution is clear that no law shall be made to inhibit the free exercise of religion. What is the code on displaying Christian symbols on public land? How does that effect the display of the ten commandments?

Arikay · Dec 2, 2003

Yes, truth is truth, however, when it comes to what happens when you die, the only "truth" we have is that your systems shut down and you eventually start to decompose. After that, its belief. now some claim their beliefs are "truth" and not beliefs, but I would say they are on a very shakey foundation.

White horse, if you want to debate about the 10C or the ACLU might I suggest we move to a new thread instead of off tracking this one?
As far as the ACLU, yes im sure many christians hate having abilities taken away to make things more equal for all. Unfortunatly for them, it needs to be done.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 3, 2003

The truth is what it is. That's what separates fact from opinion. So after we die, the truth is still the truth. If someone does not have this truth, it isn't any less true because of their perceptions.

I was using the ACLU as an example in stating my views here-an acceptable use. But if you'd like to start another thread, please feel free.

tcampen · Dec 4, 2003

Whitehorse said:
Do Christians push their religion, or do people just not want to hear what they say? Because, with the wind of this culture, people are doing all they can to keep Christianity silent.

Islam isn't getting a whole lotta love in the U.S. lately, in case you haven't noticed. Many conservative commentators call it a religion of hate and violence, and very few are publicly sticking up for Islam.

Christianity and Islam are the two largest religions in the world because of their extremely active efforts to convert new members. Do Christians push their religion? That is an undeniable fact.

You can pray to any God but Jehovah. You can put a Budda on public lawn, and the ACLU woun't budge. .

Click to expand...

That's not true at all. The focus on the governmental establishment of Christianity by the ACLU is, surprize!, a direct result of Christianity pushing itself on others through the government. This just happens to be a violation of the 1st and 14th Amendments. Now if you can provide an example of the ACLU attacking the public display of a Buddha in a religious context, please share.

Also, the ACLU does not make the law either judicially or legislatively. While they may bring suit to enforce the Federal Constitution, it is a judge, judges or Justices that make those legal determinations. Anyone who blames the ACLU for their actions is really saying they don't like our Constitution; that "we could've gotten away with what we were doing all along if it hadn't been for those meddling ACLU lawyers!"

People can pray to any God they choose. Christianity isn't being attacked by Civil Rights advocates because it is Christian, but because our constitutional protections are specifically designed to protect the minority from the majority, and in the U.S., Christianity happens to be the vast majority religion.

Click to expand...

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 4, 2003

tcampen said:
That's not true at all. The focus on the governmental establishment of Christianity by the ACLU is, surprize!, a direct result of Christianity pushing itself on others through the government. This just happens to be a violation of the 1st and 14th Amendments. Now if you can provide an example of the ACLU attacking the public display of a Buddha in a religious context, please share.

Also, the ACLU does not make the law either judicially or legislatively. While they may bring suit to enforce the Federal Constitution, it is a judge, judges or Justices that make those legal determinations. Anyone who blames the ACLU for their actions is really saying they don't like our Constitution; that "we could've gotten away with what we were doing all along if it hadn't been for those meddling ACLU lawyers!"

People can pray to any God they choose. Christianity isn't being attacked by Civil Rights advocates because it is Christian, but because our constitutional protections are specifically designed to protect the minority from the majority, and in the U.S., Christianity happens to be the vast majority religion.

That is not true about the ACLU. I wonder why only nonChristians take this stance. Look at all the lawsuits against Christian activity by the ACLU. ...And you assume there is no God behind Christianity. If we're pushing our beliefs, why do you come to a Christian forum when you aren't one?

Mylinkay Asdara · Dec 5, 2003

To exchange ideas and philosophies with people. To discuss the differences in our beliefs and how we can all get along better. To understand things unfamiliar to us. These are just a few of the reasons non-christians have for coming here. Also, for people like me, to defend ourselves from being slandered without representation.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 5, 2003

Mylinkay Asdara said:
To exchange ideas and philosophies with people. To discuss the differences in our beliefs and how we can all get along better. To understand things unfamiliar to us. These are just a few of the reasons non-christians have for coming here. Also, for people like me, to defend ourselves from being slandered without representation.

I understand everyone will have a different reason. But for the sake of Tcampen's argument that Christians push our beliefs on people...

Arikay · Dec 5, 2003

Again, this probably isn't the place for ACLU discussion, but tcampen is right, its not the ACLUs doing, but the courts doing, of what is decided. Beyond that, the ACLU has defended the rights of christians before.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 5, 2003

(I refer you to poast 25. Only nonChristians feel this support from the ACLU.)

Arikay · Dec 5, 2003

So, are you saying that the christians that the ACLU helped were not really "christians"?

I have a small list of 5 cases the ACLU won for christians, and 1 that it won for the jewish.

Im sure they felt helped by the ACLU, probably suggesting that you either are calling them non christian, or you should not talk for all christians.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 5, 2003

Arikay said:
So, are you saying that the christians that the ACLU helped were not really "christians"?

I have a small list of 5 cases the ACLU won for christians, and 1 that it won for the jewish.

Im sure they felt helped by the ACLU, probably suggesting that you either are calling them non christian, or you should not talk for all christians.

If you have to twist my words to win an argument, you haven't won at all. Now look at all the ACLU has done *against* Christian activity, which they do not have a constitutional right to do. I'll let you do the math. How are you going to convince any Christian that the ACLU is a good organization?

Arikay · Dec 5, 2003

I didn't twist your words at all, you said only non christians feel support from the ACLU.

As far as the rest of what you said,

1) The ACLU has Every right to fill suit against christian activities, just as the court has the right to throw them out if it makes no sense.

2) Are you saying that our courts go against the constitution, as they are the ones who are making the final decission in the ACLU cases, and they also are supposed to uphold the constitution.

Maybe you can start a new thread on this (just to make it easier) and give some examples of where the court has broken the contitution by supporting the ACLU?

tcampen · Dec 5, 2003

Whitehorse said:
That is not true about the ACLU. I wonder why only nonChristians take this stance. Look at all the lawsuits against Christian activity by the ACLU. ...And you assume there is no God behind Christianity. If we're pushing our beliefs, why do you come to a Christian forum when you aren't one?

Just trying to spread the TRUTH wherever others clearly need it.

BTW, this isn't the only webite I go to. Must one be a card carrying member of whatever forum they engage in? Gee, I hope not. Whitehorse, I do learn things from you and others who share many of your views. Sometimes I challenge them, sometimes I accept them. But I am not afraid to engage those whom I may initially disagree with, for I am not so afraid of being wrong and having to change my mind based on better information or analysis. This is what is known as Intellectual Honesty, and I sincerely hope you practice it more than you're letting on here.

And I don't assume there is no God behind Christianity, I don't claim to be able to prove that one way or the other any more than with any other faith or spirituality. That is based on faith, not objective proof.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 5, 2003

Arikay said:
I didn't twist your words at all, you said only non christians feel support from the ACLU.

As far as the rest of what you said,

1) The ACLU has Every right to fill suit against christian activities, just as the court has the right to throw them out if it makes no sense.

2) Are you saying that our courts go against the constitution, as they are the ones who are making the final decission in the ACLU cases, and they also are supposed to uphold the constitution.

Maybe you can start a new thread on this (just to make it easier) and give some examples of where the court has broken the contitution by supporting the ACLU?

There is no constitutional separation of church and state. Moreover, we do have a right to the freedom of religion which means these opressive anti-Christian laws are unconstitutional. Good idea. Let's start a thread.

tcampen · Dec 5, 2003

Whitehorse said:
I understand everyone will have a different reason. But for the sake of Tcampen's argument that Christians push our beliefs on people...

Alabama's FORMER Supereme Court Justice Moore was doing precisely that when erecting a two-ton monument of the 10 Commandments in the courthouse using tax payer money. I've gone thru his arguments, and they are so untenable that all is left is his desire to use his official government capacity to establish a particular religious concept. Such violation of the 1st Amendment is exactly what it means to push one's religion onto others through the government. Period.

As for the rank and file christians...I don't have any Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or Native American Indians banging on my door trying to convince me of their of God(s). That distinction belongs 100% to those who claim to be Christian. And if that isn't trying to push their beliefs on me, please tell me what is.

tcampen · Dec 5, 2003

Whitehorse said:
There is no constitutional separation of church and state. Moreover, we do have a right to the freedom of religion which means these opressive anti-Christian laws are unconstitutional. Good idea. Let's start a thread.

The "separation of church and state" is a Jeffersonian quote from two different letters he wrote (not just the Danbury Baptists), that much is true.

However, the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, and applied to state and local governments throught the 14th Amendment, does forbid government and their officials from promoting any particular religous beliefs above any others. Since it would be essentially impossible to represent all religious beliefs equally, promoting none is the only option.

I oppose any governmental restriction on the individual's right to religious beliefs and expression, and some stances (at public schools for example) have gone too far. But the right to personal religious expression should not be confused with state-sponsored religion, which is clearly in violation of the constitution.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 5, 2003

tcampen said:
The "separation of church and state" is a Jeffersonian quote from two different letters he wrote (not just the Danbury Baptists), that much is true.

Hardly constitution material...and if the interpretation isn't trustworthy, what else is?

However, the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, and applied to state and local governments throught the 14th Amendment, does forbid government and their officials from promoting any particular religous beliefs above any others. Since it would be essentially impossible to represent all religious beliefs equally, promoting none is the only option.

Let's look at the first ammendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, orprohibiting the free exercise thereof; or or abridging the freedom of speech or the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

How much clearer can it be?

I oppose any governmental restriction on the individual's right to religious beliefs and expression, and some stances (at public schools for example) have gone too far. But the right personal religious expression should not be confused with state-sponsored religion, which is clearly in violation of the constitution.

There's a difference between sponsoring and establishing. Those who forced the removal of the ten commandments were forcing their religious beliefs on us all. If someone can't handle a few words telling them not to steal and kill, do we really need those people making decisions in this nation? I don't want that kind of person leading the nation.

Arikay · Dec 5, 2003

A new thread would be a good idea,

You posted the section of the first amendment, where it says establishment and free exercise. Would not, a judge claiming he rules from the 10 commandments be establishment, and would not the forcing of non christians to say god be preventing the free exercise of their religion?

as far as the 10 commandments, I dont think it was the dont steal, that people complained about, but the first half, like where it says that no one shall have a god above the christian one.

In the new thread, I still wouldn't mind seeing these opressive anti christian laws.

Whitehorse said:
There is no constitutional separation of church and state. Moreover, we do have a right to the freedom of religion which means these opressive anti-Christian laws are unconstitutional. Good idea. Let's start a thread.

Bodhisattva4eva · Dec 6, 2003

You must realize, my friends that no particular religion teaches the only way to salvation above all others. You must be open minded. The world is full of religions, but most maintain the same principles. All genuine religious paths are branches of God's purity, deserving tolerance and understanding. True believers of God are accepting to all creatures no matter what they have done. Just because someone goes against your beliefs doesn't mean they are a bad person.

When you look at different religions, no one is wrong as long as they exercise morallity. After all that is what religion is all about - being the best person you can be, being thankful, being accepting. Overall, you must look at the whole metaphysics of the concept of religion to fully understand and love everyone/everything, as does God.......

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Dec 6, 2003

Bodhisattva4eva said:
You must realize, my friends that no particular religion teaches the only way to salvation above all others. You must be open minded. The world is full of religions, but most maintain the same principles. All genuine religious paths are branches of God's purity, deserving tolerance and understanding. True believers of God are accepting to all creatures no matter what they have done. Just because someone goes against your beliefs doesn't mean they are a bad person.

When you look at different religions, no one is wrong as long as they exercise morallity. After all that is what religion is all about - being the best person you can be, being thankful, being accepting. Overall, you must look at the whole metaphysics of the concept of religion to fully understand and love everyone/everything, as does God.......

Bodhisattva4eva, this is what Christianity teaches:

John 14 * *

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

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