Inter-religious conflict

[First Echelon]

What are the consequences of different religions and their different beliefs.

Although many people believe that Christ is the savior, many people do not and that is a fact not easily ignored. There are great numbers of people who would completely deny Christ for another deity such as Buddha, or Muhammad. Although these people do not believe in the fundamental Christian ideas, they may still have pure souls and live fruitful lives.

At the end of their life, can we as Christians really say that they will go to a Hell that they do not even believe in?

If they live their life by their religion, will they reach their state of higher consciousness, or will they reach ours?

The seperate religions, while all fundamentally similar, all contain nuances and subtleties that make it easy for us Christians to reach a Buddhist Hell or a Buddhist to reach a Christian hell.

How are we to decide who is right and what really happens?

 

[Havoc]

"I'm right and you're wrong and if you don't believe in the absolute truth of my God (insert God name here) then you're an idiot and you deserve hellfire and maybe I'll just kill you now before you can infect other people with your heresy... God bless you."

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

How are we to decide who is right and what really happens?

You can't and shouldn't. You have your belief and faith, just like we do. I am sure my experiences far outweigh those of some fundamentalists on here who proclaim me d*mned for not believing. You just dont know what others know. all you can do is tell others what it does for you, and say why you believe. that is where you need to draw the line.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

What are the consequences of different religions and their different beliefs.

Although many people believe that Christ is the savior, many people do not and that is a fact not easily ignored. There are great numbers of people who would completely deny Christ for another deity such as Buddha, or Muhammad. Although these people do not believe in the fundamental Christian ideas, they may still have pure souls and live fruitful lives.

At the end of their life, can we as Christians really say that they will go to a Hell that they do not even believe in?

If they live their life by their religion, will they reach their state of higher consciousness, or will they reach ours?

The seperate religions, while all fundamentally similar, all contain nuances and subtleties that make it easy for us Christians to reach a Buddhist Hell or a Buddhist to reach a Christian hell.

How are we to decide who is right and what really happens?

There is no Christian that does not believe in hell. For anyone to have the right to call himself a Christian, he has to believe the teachings of Christ, and do his best to live in accordance with those teachings. In other words, to call oneself a Christian is to take His name, as if being adopted. In Pakistan, Christians actually change their last names to Masih, which means Messiah.

So, about the answer. We arrive at it, of course, by consulting God. Many often refer to the number of people who believe one thing or another. This cannot prove anything, since physical eyes cannot see God. To get to the answer, we have to go to God Himself. But most people choose a religion like a pair of shoes-what suits them best. And this is obviously no way to arrive at the truth. Anytime we make decisions according to our emotions, we have trouble. Emotions are important, but they don't belong at the decision-making helm.

To really see the truth about God, one thing we can do is see the truth about ourselves: our weakness. Our frailty. Our humble place in this world. Our corruption...which, you guessed it, can only be revealed by God. But people want to believe they can find God on their own terms, and this is why they never do. We're not that important. And we don't want to admit it.

 

[Ben johnson]

How are we to decide who is right and what really happens?

Truth is a strong pillar; it doesn't need you at all, it stands by itself; and it doesn't need me at all either. Truth is a tree branch --- it begins with a root and brances from there (but only ONE branch is TRUE):

There IS a God, or there is NOT a God.
If GOD, then Jesus IS the path, or He is NOT.

And so on.

Why would Christianity be any better than any other? Well, name one other (prominent) religious founder who called himself, GOD. Jesus did. C. S. Lewis said, "Jesus IS who He said He was, or He was NOT; if NOT, then He was a LIAR (and died for a lie), or He was a raving lunatic and His whole ministry came from a madman."

Legally, in a "court-sense", you can prove that Jesus' words, as recorded in Scripture, are true and accurate; this affirms Lewis' 3-fold premise.

Further, Christianity differs from ALL OTHER religions in two foundational aspects:
1. Jesus is GOD --- all other relegions deny this.
2. Salvation is NOT works, it is a free GIFT. All other religions are based on works.

RELIGION: "You are what you do."
CHRISTIANITY: "You DO what you ARE."

BTW, I believe there WILL be some who lived as Buddhists, or Moslems, etc, who WILL go to Heaven. I think Romans 2:14-16 addresses this; though there is salvation in NONE OTHER than Jesus (Acts4:12), each is held to his own level of understanding; never having HEARD of Jesus, each can still have Jesus in his HEART. Rom1:19-20

 

[Arikay]

Whitehorse:

Although I dont think picking a religion is as easy as picking a pair of shoes, I do think that each person has a religion that is right for them.
Just think about it, take a job for instance, one mans dream job might be another mans hell, because people are different.

Its interesting that you mentioned one thing we can do is to see the truth about ourselves. As my beliefs say a similar thing.


Ben johnson:

C.S. lewis's argument is flawed, and I believe a false dilemma. As there are more answers than just what was given, for example, answer D) He was not god, but believed he was, not making him a liar, just someone who thought he knew, but really didn't. Answer E) Jesus never made the many claims about himself, they were added in later or misunderstandings on the writters part. Etc.
What is it with inteligent people liking False dilemmas.

You say that in a court you could prove the words and claims of Jesus but you dont give any explination. I find this interesting, maybe you can start a new thread about this proof.

2 aspects of christianity.

1) Of course no one else accepts Jesus the god man, but then again, you dont accept the god men of many other religions, so I dont see whats so amazing about this, as other religions can make the same claim, just replace the name Jesus.

2) Its of interest to note that not all christians believe you are saved by faith alone, but thats for another thread. Im curious if you have researched All religions and come to the conclusion that christianity is the only one to allow entrance into heaven on faith alone.


You seperated religion and christianity, you are aware christianity is a religion right?

 

[Havoc]

Sorry Whitehorse, the majority of Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't believe you have the right to define what makes a Christian over that of the majority.

 

[onajourney87]

C.S. lewis's argument is flawed, and I believe a false dilemma. As there are more answers than just what was given, for example, answer D) He was not god, but believed he was, not making him a liar, just someone who thought he knew, but really didn't. Answer E) Jesus never made the many claims about himself, they were added in later or misunderstandings on the writters part. Etc.

Isn't option 'D' just restating the lunatic option?

As for option 'E', I think that is stretching stuff quite a bit when you consider the amount of people who ministered with Him, and then died because of the things He had claimed about Himself and they believe.

osm

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Well, since Christianity and Islam are the only religions with hell (that I know of) it's really not a huge concearn for all of us. (In fact, I'm not even sure Islam has a hell...?)
Anyway, even if hell does exist and God is the only god and Jesus is the only way- despite my great respect for Jesus's teachings I would never worship any god who would send his creations to eternal torment. Eternal. As in Forever. Just for not believing the right things when they were alive (a very short time indeed comparted with eternity when you think about it). I just wouldn't. So I would go to hell anyway *shrug*

 

[Arikay]

not quite, D is almost a restate of the lunatic option, although one with much less emotion behind it. Unless you are saying that everyone who is mistaken is a lunatic, there is a difference between being mistaken and being a lunatic.
Option E is a possibility especially considering the lack of evidence of many of the claims and writtings often being made a long time after the event.

The problem with Lewis's question is that its emotionally charged, the two "bad" answers are worded in such a way that they sound mean or evil, and thus a way to try and keep people from picking them. Since I dont believe in Jesus, I dont believe jesus was an outright liar, and I dont believe he was a lunatic, there must be a 4th option.

an interesting side note is that Lewis's question makes anyone who answers yes, judge every other religious figure in history as either a Liar or a Lunatic, thats some pretty harsh, omnipotent, judging there.

Isn't option 'D' just restating the lunatic option?

As for option 'E', I think that is stretching stuff quite a bit when you consider the amount of people who ministered with Him, and then died because of the things He had claimed about Himself and they believe.

osm

 

[Divvy]

Well, since Christianity and Islam are the only religions with hell (that I know of) it's really not a huge concearn for all of us. (In fact, I'm not even sure Islam has a hell...?)
Anyway, even if hell does exist and God is the only god and Jesus is the only way- despite my great respect for Jesus's teachings I would never worship any god who would send his creations to eternal torment. Eternal. As in Forever. Just for not believing the right things when they were alive (a very short time indeed comparted with eternity when you think about it). I just wouldn't. So I would go to hell anyway *shrug*

You think people will end up based on what they believe in?

As in christians go either to a christian hell/heaven
Muslims go to a muslim hell/heaven etc...?

Unfortunately we're all humans, whether you believe we were created by god or evolved from nothing. We will most likely all be judged/"end up" the same way.

Usually you will end up behaving according to what you believe in, if you think there is no "absolute truth". You probably wont have strong morals, one day something is "right" the next day something else is "right" that was "wrong" the day before.

...so I don't think it's for "Just for not believing the right things when they were alive". Seriously there is no way you'll live you're life without doing anything "evil"... acting selfishly etc... it's an everyday occurance for most of us (I donno about people that are in a koma , or perhaps they lie there thinking all sorts of nasty stuff)

If you really could live without doing anything wrong ever, yes I think you would get to heaven, but jesus also knew no man can do that. Go ahead and give it a try if you want... unfortuately it's too late cause both you and I have already done stuff that makes us deserve to end up in hell. We all need a "new" start othervice we're doomed to hell.

Would be nice to never do anything morally wrong wouldn't it? A nice dream indeed.

 

[tcampen]

You think people will end up based on what they believe in?

As in christians go either to a christian hell/heaven
Muslims go to a muslim hell/heaven etc...?

Unfortunately we're all humans, whether you believe we were created by god or evolved from nothing. We will most likely all be judged/"end up" the same way.

That is your religious belief, which many others share, but not everyone - perhaps not even most people. What happens to us after we die is 100% speculation - - a gap of knowledge and understanding filled by religious faith. That's fine, and I'm not knocking it all. Just pointing out an objective reality.

Usually you will end up behaving according to what you believe in, if you think there is no "absolute truth". You probably wont have strong morals, one day something is "right" the next day something else is "right" that was "wrong" the day before.

Those of us who do not subscribe to the "absolute truth" as handed down by a particular concept of God idea are not unethical, immoral human shells that can't figure out right from wrong. That is hyperbole and strawman at its best. Furthermore, are you saying you've never changed your mind about the morality of something in your entire life? Whether one believes in such absolutes or not doesn't change the fact we are all looking for the most accurate truth possible. I believe in some absolute truths, especially on a conceptual level, but I also recognize relative truths and infinite shades between the two. It isn't as easy as a bright line test, and requires a bit more consideration and thinking. But who ever said doing the right thing was going to be easy?

If you really could live without doing anything wrong ever, yes I think you would get to heaven, but jesus also knew no man can do that. Go ahead and give it a try if you want... unfortuately it's too late cause both you and I have already done stuff that makes us deserve to end up in hell. We all need a "new" start othervice we're doomed to hell. Would be nice to never do anything morally wrong wouldn't it? A nice dream indeed.

This is all a dream and speculation. My guesses about what happens to us after our natural lives is admittedly no better or worse than yours, whether I base my beliefs on ancient texts or my own personal whims. This is where faith steps in, and everybody's got their own 2 cents worth to share there. Your religious ideas about the afterlife are abundantly clear, and obviously very similar to many other people. They appear to be based on a particular theology and interpretation of the Bible. No problem there. But don't forget that reasonable, sincere and informed people disagree with your opinion on such matters. That doesn't make them or you wrong, just of different opinions.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

"I'm right and you're wrong and if you don't believe in the absolute truth of my God (insert God name here) then you're an idiot and you deserve hellfire and maybe I'll just kill you now before you can infect other people with your heresy... God bless you."

It's those who are *not* Christians that are continually wanting to assert their own beliefs. That's why they hate Christianity. A Christian only takes what he hears from God, whether it pleases him or not. Anytime you make a statement that disregards the authority behind the Christian belief, it's not a proper assertion. The rest of the world is looking to buck authority. We are not.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Sorry Whitehorse, the majority of Christians don't believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I don't believe you have the right to define what makes a Christian over that of the majority.

Someone isn't a Christian because they say they are, anymore than I'd be a tomato because I said I was. You don't honestly believe there is white horse stomping on this keyboard with its hooves, do you?

And you continually accuse me of what you yourself are doing: making up what you want to believe as your own authority. You never mention God at all.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse:

Although I dont think picking a religion is as easy as picking a pair of shoes, I do think that each person has a religion that is right for them.
Just think about it, take a job for instance, one mans dream job might be another mans hell, because people are different.

Its interesting that you mentioned one thing we can do is to see the truth about ourselves. As my beliefs say a similar thing.

Arikay, what I mean when I say we look inside ourselves, is to say that we should be able to see that we cannot make determinations about God on our own. We are temporal, and He is eternal. While people may not pick out religions as easily as a pair of shoes, they do look for what they feel suits them. Which may feel right, but it doesn't make it true. I just really feel very strongly that if it isn't true, it can't do anyone any good-only harm. To get the truth, we have to go to God.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

 

[Arikay]

Oh my, welcome to bizzaro world. you must live in a completly different world than I do. Most non christians I have talked too, never want to push their beliefs on others and Dont hate christianity.

And also, your right, someone isn't christian if they say they are christian, they are christian if they believe in what one of the creeds says per this sites rules. Since we can not read minds (unless you have magical powers or something ) We must take it as truth when someone says they believe.

As far as "if it isn't true it cant do good but only harm" thats false, and I believe can actually be statistically proven false. Plecebos can help people through a lie, and plecebo effect has been documented I believe and needs to be addjusted for in certain medical studies. Religious beliefs can help people whether they are true or not. Say christianity was false, would you deny the good that it has done for many people? Say Buddhism is false, would you deny the good that it has done for many people? etc.

It's those who are *not* Christians that are continually wanting to assert their own beliefs. That's why they hate Christianity. A Christian only takes what he hears from God, whether it pleases him or not. Anytime you make a statement that disregards the authority behind the Christian belief, it's not a proper assertion. The rest of the world is looking to buck authority. We are not.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Oh my, welcome to bizzaro world. you must live in a completly different world than I do. Most non christians I have talked too, never want to push their beliefs on others and Dont hate christianity.

My friend, I'll have to take you on a little tour of my posts one day. But wear an apron, because I get lots of eggs and rotten tomatoes chucked my way. Good thing I'm a tough ol warhorse! I get it constantly. I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians called bigotted, arrogant, self-righteous, hypocrites, mud-slinging of all types and brands...Thank you for being one of those who doesn't do that; it's refreshing. Very refreshing.

And also, your right, someone isn't christian if they say they are christian, they are christian if they believe in what one of the creeds says per this sites rules. Since we can not read minds (unless you have magical powers or something ) We must take it as truth when someone says they believe.

Well, this is a good point. And maybe we can compare their beliefs to scripture. Just the other day someone told me he was a Christian, but when someone asked, he said Jesus wasn't God, which is completely not in accordance with scripture. I think he'd like to be a Christian. But, he doesn't read his Bible. And if he doesn't believe Jesus is God, how can he be saved by Him?

And then there are those who profess, but lead very unChristian lives. The Bible says we are not to associate with them, because they bring dishonor to God's name. Some Christians struggle with besetting sins, but there is a person who sins and doesn't care. One who will not receive correction from the church. THis is not a case of spiritual weakness, but rebellion.

As far as "if it isn't true it cant do good but only harm" thats false, and I believe can actually be statistically proven false. Plecebos can help people through a lie, and plecebo effect has been documented I believe and needs to be addjusted for in certain medical studies. Religious beliefs can help people whether they are true or not. Say christianity was false, would you deny the good that it has done for many people? Say Buddhism is false, would you deny the good that it has done for many people? etc.

Well, I certainly see what you're saying about temporal effects. But the thing is, we're not talking about placebos, we're talking about the final judgment of God. If God says to live one way, and someone says it isn't true because he doesn't want to follow God's rules, what will become of him? If God hates idolotry, and somone chooses an idol because he likes the idea of serving what his own hands have made, or at least what he has chosen, what will become of him? In Christianity, we're talking very little about this world. Because the truth is, this life is short. And then what?

 

[Arikay]

Yeah, Unfortunatly the mud slinging goes both ways, however, sometimes you have to check exactly what they are talking about and if its true. There are bigotted christians, and often they have loud voices. However, for pushing religion and hating others, in the US I think christianity takes that one. Not all christians, not even the majority, but from everything I have seen, there are more christians pushing their religion and attacking others, than any other religion. Often this can cause other people to lash out at all christians, as they hear it so often, they dont realize its a minority.

Yes, there are many christians that dont often act christ like. However, they are still christians as long as they believe one of the creeds. Maybe not good christians, but still christians. Afterall, the No true Scotsman fallacy is never good either.

Ah, IC, you mean afterdeath. In that case, its all opinion. However, it could be possible that god rewards christ like actions without belief in christ. Or that he rewards true faith, even if its not in jesus, etc. Although we have no clue.

My friend, I'll have to take you on a little tour of my posts one day. But wear an apron, because I get lots of eggs and rotten tomatoes chucked my way. Good thing I'm a tough ol warhorse! I get it constantly. I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians called bigotted, arrogant, self-righteous, hypocrites, mud-slinging of all types and brands...Thank you for being one of those who doesn't do that; it's refreshing. Very refreshing.



Well, this is a good point. And maybe we can compare their beliefs to scripture. Just the other day someone told me he was a Christian, but when someone asked, he said Jesus wasn't God, which is completely not in accordance with scripture. I think he'd like to be a Christian. But, he doesn't read his Bible. And if he doesn't believe Jesus is God, how can he be saved by Him?

And then there are those who profess, but lead very unChristian lives. The Bible says we are not to associate with them, because they bring dishonor to God's name. Some Christians struggle with besetting sins, but there is a person who sins and doesn't care. One who will not receive correction from the church. THis is not a case of spiritual weakness, but rebellion.



Well, I certainly see what you're saying about temporal effects. But the thing is, we're not talking about placebos, we're talking about the final judgment of God. If God says to live one way, and someone says it isn't true because he doesn't want to follow God's rules, what will become of him? If God hates idolotry, and somone chooses an idol because he likes the idea of serving what his own hands have made, or at least what he has chosen, what will become of him? In Christianity, we're talking very little about this world. Because the truth is, this life is short. And then what?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Yeah, Unfortunatly the mud slinging goes both ways, however, sometimes you have to check exactly what they are talking about and if its true. There are bigotted christians, and often they have loud voices. However, for pushing religion and hating others, in the US I think christianity takes that one. Not all christians, not even the majority, but from everything I have seen, there are more christians pushing their religion and attacking others, than any other religion. Often this can cause other people to lash out at all christians, as they hear it so often, they dont realize its a minority.

Do Christians push their religion, or do people just not want to hear what they say? Because, with the wind of this culture, people are doing all they can to keep Christianity silent. You can pray to any God but Jehovah. You can put a Budda on public lawn, and the ACLU woun't budge. I know of one church that was actually ordered to turn the lights on its cross off because some individual claimed it was giving her kids nightmares.

[/quote]Yes, there are many christians that dont often act christ like. However, they are still christians as long as they believe one of the creeds. Maybe not good christians, but still christians. Afterall, the No true Scotsman fallacy is never good either.[/quote]

That's not what scripture says. And scripture is the authority.

Ah, IC, you mean afterdeath. In that case, its all opinion. However, it could be possible that god rewards christ like actions without belief in christ. Or that he rewards true faith, even if its not in jesus, etc. Although we have no clue.

It isn't opinion: it's what is true. We live in a culture that is in love with the idea of inventing it's own truths. I can't think of a more perilous inclination. I truly can't. If we're talking about God here, we better know our stuff. But most the people who claim to have the truth about God aren't even seeking Him. In fact, they're seeking to avoid Him. Not a very good way to find the truth about Him.

 

[Arikay]

Might I suggest taking a look from the side of the no believer, christians push their religion at me all the time, sometimes even try to shove it down my throat or into our government. Unfortunatly its often one of the biggest driving away factors.

As far as ACLU actions, I would recomend taking a better look into things. Where prayer is not allow, its all prayer, not just christian prayer. you can put all different kinds of religious items on a public lawn, however, the details are what changes the case.

As far as scripture, your right scripture says a lot of things, and many people interpret it differently, just look at all the different christian groups. If each group is still christian, then that means that certain scripture defines a christians and other scripture does not. Carefull you dont fall into the No True Scotsman fallacy.

It is what is true in your opinion. You have faith that your belief is truth, just like others have faith that their belief is truth. This is often where more abitrary thought comes into play, as no matter what "dont believe, go to hell" religion you pick, it will send the majority of people to hell. Often people cant believe a loving or just god would do this, yet they believe god is loving and just, and so they think of a way to make him more like he says he is, or they think he is. For all we know, they could have been moved by god to have these revelations.
We just dont know.

And because we dont know, often people feel better about not condemning a majority to hell over something they dont know.

Do Christians push their religion, or do people just not want to hear what they say? Because, with the wind of this culture, people are doing all they can to keep Christianity silent. You can pray to any God but Jehovah. You can put a Budda on public lawn, and the ACLU woun't budge. I know of one church that was actually ordered to turn the lights on its cross off because some individual claimed it was giving her kids nightmares...