Intelligent Design

[Truth in Faith]

http://www.discovery.org

 

[seebs]

Intelligent design suffers from the small problem that it's untestable; there are no predictions we can make from it that would allow us to test it. It could be either true or false, and everything would be the same. It's thus unimportant scientifically; we don't need it, but it doesn't really screw things up... much. It actually makes God look like sort of an idiot, when you look at systems that don't work so well.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I'm still waiting to find out how to empirically determine whether something is "designed" or not.

I'm also waiting to find out how a designer (whoever or whatever they are) actually effects such design upon the world.

Until those two basic questions get answered, the whole ID movement will be little more than poor attempt at saying "Goddidit".

 

[WinAce]

I'm still waiting for a set of criteria that can reliably distinguish between "intelligent" and "unintelligent" design (with the latter being design via Darwinian selection algorithms). Any criteria that also indicate the designers are designed is prone to false positives and hence can't be used.

 

[notto]

Today at 05:14 PM Pete Harcoff said this in Post #3

I'm still waiting to find out how to empirically determine whether something is "designed" or not.

I'm also waiting to find out how a designer (whoever or whatever they are) actually effects such design upon the world.

Until those two basic questions get answered, the whole ID movement will be little more than poor attempt at saying "Goddidit".

If you find a watch wrapped around an Indian arrowhead inside a 747 washed up on a beach by a tornado next to a junkyard, it is intelligently designed. Otherwise, it was a natural process of "chance".

 

[Chris H]

One can only look at certain things and think the intelligent designer must be a pure idiot. Why do men have nipples when they can't nurse babies? Who created AIDS? Who created smallpox? Who created Mlaria? Who created parasites? You'd possibly get a false positive for all of the Above using ID criteria. And I'd rather not worship a being who creates something like HIV/AIDS that makes 50 million people suffer.

Chris

 

[Arikay]

Well, besides the bad things (WinAce has an interesting list of rather mean things, but I cant get it to load right now).

There are the many flaws, and oddities that make you question what the designer was thinking when he made them.

Today at 05:51 PM Chris H said this in Post #6

One can only look at certain things and think the intelligent designer must be a pure idiot. Why do men have nipples when they can't nurse babies? Who created AIDS? Who created smallpox? Who created Mlaria? Who created parasites? You'd possibly get a false positive for all of the Above using ID criteria. And I'd rather not worship a being who creates something like HIV/AIDS that makes 50 million people suffer.

Chris

 

[Osiris]

HIV has only been around since, maybe the mid 80's so basically it's a new disease.
Also that new pnemonia that has killed around 113 people around the world and that started in Asia is said to be a caused by a mutation of a different disease, isn't that sort of like evolution?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Today at 08:36 PM notto said this in Post #5


If you find a watch wrapped around an Indian arrowhead inside a 747 washed up on a beach by a tornado next to a junkyard, it is intelligently designed. Otherwise, it was a natural process of "chance".

If it's not intelligently designed, then there must be one heck of a story.

Or maybe the pilot was just having a really bad day...

 

[Arikay]

Although I cant remember but awhile back I did some research on HIV because of someone claiming that is was a Genetically enginiered Virus made by the CIA in the 70's to target and kill gay people.

Ignoring how stupid their claim sounds, I found that some of the first cases of HIV are from around the 50's and some believe it goes back even further than that.

Today at 06:19 PM Osiris said this in Post #8

HIV has only been around since, maybe the mid 80's so basically it's a new disease.
Also that new pnemonia that has killed around 113 people around the world and that started in Asia is said to be a caused by a mutation of a different disease, isn't that sort of like evolution?

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 01:57 PM seebs said this in Post #2

Intelligent design suffers from the small problem that it's untestable;

What is to test? If you have any intelligence at all, then you know that God is the creater of the universe and all that is in it.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

John,

Insults are never a good way to witness to people.

WWJD?

 

[Jon]

Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, so God sent them out. That's how we got half the problems in this world. Then flood brought the rest.

 

[Arikay]

Can you please show us the scripture evidence that shows the flood brought the other half of sin?

 

[Freodin]

Today at 05:20 AM Jon said this in Post #13

Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden, so God sent them out. That's how we got half the problems in this world. Then flood brought the rest.

That is an interesting hypothesis, you should explain it further. I would be very interested in a mechanism that could fit humans fit all the problems we suffer from and that only uses "sinning" as input.

So, for example, a major problem of humanity are troubles with the spine. That comes from the simple fact that our anatomy was not originally created for bipedal movement.

Do you think Adam and Eve were quadrupeds?

 

[Ba'Alzamon]

Yesterday at 10:46 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #11



What is to test? If you have any intelligence at all, then you know that God is the creater of the universe and all that is in it.

I see...

So, considering that I am one of two people in my math class, I've taken more advanced placement classes than most people at my school, am going to a top-notch college paying very little, I have no intelligence because I believe that there was no divine power behind the existance of the universe?

 

[lucaspa]

Yesterday at 10:46 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #11

What is to test? If you have any intelligence at all, then you know that God is the creater of the universe and all that is in it.

That's not what ID is all about, John.  The question is still one of how God created.  ID is saying that there are "gaps" in the physical universe such that God had to not "design" creatures, but manufacture them.

Look thru the Discovery Institute or www.arn.org.  When IDers say "designed", they mean "manufactured".  Biological organisms are supposed to be artifacts made directly by God using processes that don't exist in the universe.  Just like Paley's watch on the heath was made by processes not present on the heath.

The problem is that physics, chemistry, biology plus natural selection is a manufacturing process for biological organisms, complete with design (via natural selection).  So the conclusion that there must be an ID is unwarranted.

 

[lucaspa]

Yesterday at 01:57 PM seebs said this in Post #2

Intelligent design suffers from the small problem that it's untestable; there are no predictions we can make from it that would allow us to test it.

That's not entirely true.  Since IDers want to be taken seriously as science, they have to make testable predictions every now and then.  When they do, they can be tested and falsified. True, you have to look a lot harder for those testable statements because IDers are more careful than YECers, but they are there.

Three I can think of right off the top of my head.

1. IC systems exist.
2. IC systems can't be formed by Darwinian evolution or chance.
3. Complex, specified information can be generated only by intelligence.

All three have been tested. All three have been falsified.  See Kenneth Miller for falsification of 1 and 2. See Thornhill and Ussery and Behe for falsification of 2.  See Elseberry and Lehninger for falsification of 3.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 10:15 AM Ba'Alzamon said this in Post #16 

I have no intelligence because I believe that there was no divine power behind the existance of the universe?

It is all in the definition. According to the dictionary intellegence is the ability to be able to acquire and apply knowledge.

According to the Bible Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Knowledge.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 04:18 PM lucaspa said this in Post #18 

Since IDers want to be taken seriously as science, 

Intellegent design is not required to be tought in the schools. Evolution is required to be tought. So they should be required to teach theistic evolution along side of non theistic evolution.