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No, not scientific laws...laws of logic. For example, the law of non-contradiction. The $100 bill in my walletis either in my wallet or not in my wallet. It cannot be both at the same time. Would you agree with that?
Hey, Question.Everything,
If you have read the rudely named article, Atheism: An Irrational Worldview - Answers in Genesis, you may find that this article discusses the issue of "laws of logic" and "the existence of God". The article relies on the assumption that the laws of logic and the existence of God are related, because they share similar characteristics. I don't know about you, but I think that's a logical fallacy right there. Just because two things are related doesn't mean they come from the same source. For example, bird wings and bat wings may be both used for flying, but that does not mean they are evolved from the same source. It's called convergent evolution.
originates from God.
I think you have misunderstood the thesis in the "Irrational Worldview" article. The point is that the atheist believes that only the material exists while logic and its laws govern all that does exist and logic is non-material as well as originates from God. God uses logic to hold the universe together. Logic is universal, does not change, and when we use logic, we are using what God has created. So to deny God and use logic that He has created is illogical.
I think this part is the core of the article. The reader must believe that logic originate from God, but why? Why can't logic originate from anywhere else? Because God has created everything, and nothing is created without God. The bold claim is questionable.
How can you prove God created logic, and that logic itself is not self-evident?
Where does logic originate?
How can you prove God created logic, and that logic itself is not self-evident?
I do not know how to answer this philosophical question. So, I'll just say that the origin of logic is a big question mark. Maybe it's God. Maybe it's not God.
Something has to be eternal and causeless, otherwise you end up with an infinite regress, which is a severe logical problem. It seems you yourself recognize this. So, either God (an eternal causeless mind) or the universe (an intricate and complex array of matter and energy) is eternal. We can go to science to see which is more likely.If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?
Because the universe (matter, energy, space, and time) had an absolute beginning about 13.7 billion years ago in the big bang. This is the overwhelming consensus of modern cosmology. Given that science is the epistemological foundation of naturalism, to reject this consensus is a violation of your own epistemology. So, the universe is not eternal.If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?
I think it is in many ways, but not entirely. Actually, the very fact that we can learn real truths about this universe is itself indicative of God. Under a naturalistic frame-work, where both ourselves and the universe exist without reason or purpose, it seems incredibly unlikely that a species like us would evolve and actually be able to learn about the laws of the cosmos at all. Yet we do really know things about the universe, because we use this knowledge for practical applications that work.If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?
First, I cannot prove God created logic. It is the premiss in the original thesis. As a believer, I attribute the existence and origin of logic to God because God is self-consistent, non-contradictory, and cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13). Although I cannot prove God is the origin of logic, the fact that there is something non-material that exists and exists as a governor over the natural world should make the atheist reconsider his natural world view.
For the second question: the recognition of the existence of logic is not the issue. The issue is because it exists it must originate from somewhere. Logic an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity, so where does it originate?
[God] is an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity, so where does God originate? The question defeats itself.
It has not been shown how something can come from nothing unless you redefine nothing as being something.
So that leaves us with something always existing. The question is: “Is this something that always existed intelligent and powerful or is it random unintelligent matter/energy?”
There is the appearance of intelligent design everywhere we look, so how would random unintelligent energy and matter produce the appearance of intelligence and actual intelligence (as found in humans for instance)?
What we do know is: “the more we know the more we realize we do not know”, suggesting an extremely complex universe. As the realization of the complexity of the universe increases the likelihood of random conditions resulting in such a universe become less likely.
Since something has to exist forever, which takes more “faith” to believe in: an eternal intelligent powerful creator of the universe or random energy/matter producing a very complex universe?
Nails74 said:No, not scientific laws...laws of logic. For example, the law of non-contradiction. The $100 bill in my wallet is either in my wallet or not in my wallet. It cannot be both at the same time. Would you agree with that?
And are these universal laws? Do they apply everywhere or just where you are. Are they true for everyone or just for you?With the $100 bill? Sure I believe it.
Intelligent= organized by design and is not random (random = not intelligently organized). The better the organization the greater the apparent intelligence.What do you mean by "intelligence", and why do you call "matter" and "energy" unintelligent? How do you measure intelligence?
Energy and matter in our universe is organized and is not random, but what reason would energy and matter appear to be organized by rules; if it was not designed that way?
It is for each person to deside.I am not sure which one takes more 'faith' to believe in, because first of all, how exactly do you quantify 'faith'? All knowledge requires some sort of faith.It's called epistemology.
Intelligent= organized by design and is not random (random = not intelligently organized). The better the organization the greater the apparent intelligence.
Energy and matter in our universe is organized and is not random, but what reason would energy and matter appear to be organized by rules; if it was not designed that way?
[FONT="]Where does it originate is the question? Even if I accept your thesis, and I dont, logic is still an entity that governs the natural laws and presents a non-material entity that at the very least opens the possibilities for God. [/FONT]Its existence demonstrates that the natural world view is irrational.God is an unnecessary step in your logic. Logic is self-consistent, non-contradictory, and cannot deny itself either. It does not require a creator.
[God] is an abstract, universal, constant, and non-material entity , so where does God originate? The question defeats itself.
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