Intellectual integrity

oikonomia said:

Isn't it hell enough not know why even why one lives?

I mean you have enumerated a fairly typical list of complaints against Jesus Christ or at least a cultural "anity" as a religious or social matter.

Your heart beats, your lungs breath, your physical systems probably all work well enough to keep you alive from day to day.
Your mind imagines, remembers, figures out. Your will chooses and your emotions like or dislike things and people.
But do you know why you are here in the universe?

You see the Person of the resurrected Jesus Christ is the only thing which planted in my heart ultimate meaning to everything.
I may have seen even more reasons to be discouraged by Christianity than you.
But I found out the man is alive and available and His love is indestructible, prevailing, and eternal.

If I could possibly drop my personal relationship with Jesus and pick up instead your philosophy, what would it
do for me in terms of enlightening me as to why I am living in this big universe?

What will your atheism furnish me with as to the reason I live or ANYTHING is for that matter?

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public hermit said:

Oh, well, yeah that. As a person of a particular faith, I have to recognize that what I believe is not believed by others and that I could be wrong. The Christian scriptures, for instance, have problems, and I have no issue admitting them. The fundamentalist who vehemently insists on a truth claim (e.g. YEC) despite all contrary evidence and good reason is not being intellectually honest, for sure. It seems they should at least admit that their belief is outside the evidence and it is not anywhere near certain, it's just their belief.

Going with the same example, I wonder if it would make a difference if the YEC admitted their belief was way outside and also didn't disparage science. If the adherent of YEC was very humble about their belief, recognizing it for what it is- a belief without evidence, would that be a form of intellectual integrity? I ask because I'm not certain we can simply choose what we believe. Changing one's deeply held beliefs is a process and not something one can do on a whim. Maybe the best some can do, in terms of intellectual honesty, is admit the precarious nature of their belief.

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FrumiousBandersnatch said:

No, why should it be? Why do you need a reason? We're alive, so let's get on with it ;-)


There is a causal explanation (big bang theory, evolution, etc), but that ultimately leads back to why there is something (including God) rather than nothing - which is a 'mu' (meaningless or unanswerable) question.

For many atheists, the understanding that they have a limited lifetime gives life meaning, and that their existence is finite can be a comfort. IOW, make the most of the time you have, and if things don't work out for you it doesn't matter in the long run.

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FrumiousBandersnatch said:

What possibility?


You made a claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with you. It doesn't mean you have to have proof or claim to have proof, just that If proof is required, the burden is on you to provide it. It also means that no one else has any responsibility to prove or disprove your claim. So asking someone to disprove your claim is a fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'.


That all looks like justification to me, but I'll leave it to the reader to decide...

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oikonomia said:

I do not believe that a person like Jesus Christ would be made up by human imagination even if
it was possible for us to do so.

Any conspiracy theory that the Jesus of the New Testament was the product of imagination doesn't seem to work.
"Religious people concocted Jesus Christ" fails.
"Males imagined up Jesus" fails.
"Capitalists invented Jesus Christ" doesn't add up any more than Socialists, Communists, or even Jews are responsible for the
invention of Christ.

You have said in essense "But religions are concocted for the afflicted."
That tells us nothing about WHY there are the afflicted in the first place.
And technology and science are just as much inventions to ease the plight of the afflicted.
You apparently don't dismiss the scientific enterprise because it too exists ultimately to releave the afflicted.
Invention after invention is for what purpose? Their purpose is to make man's life better based on knowledge of the way the universe works.

The complaint that religious is only there to comfort the afflicted seems a selective objection.
I'll be looking for what your atheism provides that I have not in God.



I say this because you mentioned your several problems with Christianity.
I took off the "anity" and considered these objections as essentially some of your reasons you would not trust in a Person - Christ.

If you would trust in a Person - Christ inspite of Christianity please let me know.
This is the route I have taken.


C'mon. Sure you are. Read your own post.
You were not impressed with this or that.
You could get just as much ethics and moraity teaching without the Christian faith.
Wasn't that your point?

Vica versa.
I'll make that effort. And you in turn attempt to not quickly generalize about me.
Deal?

For example: For me the most influential Christian thinkers have come from Mainland China.
You see I think the West was so spoiled by traditional religion that God had to go to a virgin area of the world
in terms of fresh light and vitality for the Christain faith.

I owe too much of my spiritual growth to Chinese Christians like Watchman Nee.
He spent the last 20 years of his life in a Communist prison on the mainland for his work as a Christian teacher / preacher.

Argument by apathy?
Okay. You have NO complaints against Christianity. Fine. I got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

How do feel about the Son of God's victory over death and the grave?
Do you believe One could be so prevailing that even death could not hold Him?

If Jesus is not living my faith in God is 100% useless practically. For tomorrow we die and rot.
And where in your atheist system is there ultimate justice and the balancing of the moral scales of the universe?
In the teaching of Christ the last judgment will be the last judgment.

In your system will all evil doers simply melt peacefully into the dust?
With my faith Christ demostrated that not only Himself He brought back from death but
all will be to face final judgment.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. ( John 5:28-30)

Humor me. You know a Christian is going to discuss this with some reference to what the Bible says.

Where in your atheism is ultimate accountability to an ultimate Governor whose knowledge of all the circumstancial facts of our
life is infallible?

Where is final justice or redemption before a perfect standard of truth.
The Bible tells me that "the judgment of God is according to truth". (Romans 2:2)


This is completely understandable.
No one is getting away with anything.

Judgment begins with those who are supposed to have known better.
For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us, what will be the end of those who disobey the gospel of God? (1 Pet. 4:17)

I wish I had a bit more time to exchange posts. But it will have to wait.
I just repeat, the most influential Christians on my spiritual well-being and growth were born in mainland China.

I'll have to take in your other points latter.
Thanks for reading.

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