Instituted when?

David Conklin · Nov 15, 2010

>Within the text God gives a law for the people. The law is for them to; go out and gather on 6 days,

That takes place after verse 4. Whether or not one would call it a law or not is something else--personally to call it a law or to say that anyone has been "falsifying" anything exceeds the bounds of the evidence at hand.

In verse 23 we have the day referred to as "Sabbath," before the commandment about the Sabbath was supposedly given.

Cribstyl · Nov 15, 2010

David Conklin said:
>

crib said:

Within the text God gives a law for the people. The law is for them to; go out and gather on 6 days,

Click to expand...

That takes place after verse 4.

Whether or not one would call it a law or not is something else--personally to call it a law or to say that anyone has been "falsifying" anything exceeds the bounds of the evidence at hand.

In verse 23 we have the day referred to as "Sabbath," before the commandment about the Sabbath was supposedly given.

It seems quite clear to many that; in verse Ex16:4, God is proposing a law, to test the people's obedience to His commandment by the hand of Moses.
The understanding we get from verse Ex16:4, is that God's is going to test the people's obedience to His commandment (law), which is: "to gather 6days and rest on the seventh day.

By you referencing the 4th commandment in (Ex20:8-10,) you're trying to confuse the undeniable facts written in verse Ex16:23.

You have to ingor from interpreting that God is commanding and instituting the Sabbath in this verse because it directly contradicts statement from your doctrine.

Here are the words that makes the very first Sabbath, the first Sabbath ever.

Exd 16:23And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
(Tomorrow the resting on the Sabbath is comming to you.)

Exd 16:24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

Exd 16:25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
( Today is a Sabbath unto the Lord)
Exd 16:26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

Exd 16:27And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

Exd 16:28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
(by going out on the sabbath to gather food is they break the Sabbath commandment and my law Given by Moses )
Exd 16:29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
( Hello!!!! Understanding says; OPEN YOUR EYES, because God hath given you the Sabbath")
Exd 16:30So the people rested on the seventh day.

Princessdi · Nov 15, 2010

Fact is, and supported as I skim this thread(if I missed anything, I am sure I will be corrected , not much is said about the Sabbath after Exodus in the OT. And then is Exodus it seems to be a bit self-serving as God goes on to give the COI the 10c.

DISCLAIMER: Please don't stone me, I full believe in the Sabbath Day as God instituted it.

My point is that it is just not mentioned that much. My personal point of view is that that writers knew they were writer to people with prior knowledge and therefore did not have to meontion it. They(also the NT writers) didn't know we would be reading, relying even, in there writings in the next century let alone the 21st.

David Conklin · Nov 16, 2010

>Verse 23 exposes your game plan more clearly

Love the proof. It actually is in the reverse.

Cribstyl · Nov 16, 2010

Princessdi said:
Fact is, and supported as I skim this thread(if I missed anything, I am sure I will be corrected , not much is said about the Sabbath after Exodus in the OT. And then is Exodus it seems to be a bit self-serving as God goes on to give the COI the 10c. My point is that it is just not mentioned that much.

Respectfully Ms, that is proven as false, because more is said about sabbath outside of Exodus in the Old Testament. Here's the unrefutable evidence in red Exd(12)Lev(12)Num(3)Deu(3)2Ki(5)1Ch(1)2Ch(3)Neh(9)Psa(1)Isa(4)Jer(4)Eze(3)Amo(1)
"Sabbaths" Exd(1)Lev(9)1Ch(1)2Ch(4)Neh(1)Isa(2)Lam(2)Eze(12)Hsa(1)

Levitcus proves it was a ceromonial commandment forever.
Numbers proves that they had zero history to reference about what to do when someone was found breaking the sabbath. So your idea about no mention should mean they always knew what to do. It's seem more likely that Sabbath breaking was new to their history.

Nehemiah and Ezekiel written generations later recalls and proves Sabbath was first given to only one people as a sign and not to the whole world in the book of Genesis.

In Genesis God chose to tell us about His rest from all His work of creation, and also forbidden fruit that was a sin for Adam. Show us where Sabbath was instituted in creation?
Your prophetess chose to teach you about an instituted sabbath that causes you to study the bible as commentary to her writtings.

Correction should be words from God, not commentary design to create new questions never asked or answered by God's word.

DISCLAIMER: Please don't stone me, I full believe in the Sabbath Day as God instituted it.

The primary goal of this thread is to examine claims about sabbath institution, not to stone you. SO, If you have biblical text to "fully believe", please post it, or what you fully believe is not scriptures.

My personal point of view is that that writers knew they were writer to people with prior knowledge and therefore did not have to meontion it.

Cool, my point of view is; The bible is God's word to the world, it's a living word for all Generations. The gospel of the Kingdom has nothing to do with Sabbathkeeping. The apostle waited for the Holy Spirit to open their understanding, so what they preached after Penticost are the doctrines of the church which Jesus promised to build. The law and the prophets were read in the synagogue on the Sabbaths. SDA confuse the facts that the apostles were first sent from Christ Church to convert Jews first. SDA point to sabbath days in which those sent from the church to preach about Jesus Christ as if Sabbathkeeping was the established day for Christain worship. SDA method of teaching the bible is bent to incorperate the doctrines rather than the commissioned Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They(also the NT writers) didn't know we would be reading, relying even, in there writings in the next century let alone the 21st.

If the Church that Christ promised to build was already built before Pentecost then you maybe you can give me doctrines from before then. Christian doctrines are found primarily in Paul's letters, because Jesus called and chosen him as the apostle to the Gentiles.

Respectfully

David Conklin · Nov 16, 2010

>Levitcus proves it was a ceromonial commandment forever.

Chapter and verse, please.

>Numbers proves that they had zero history to reference about what to do when someone was found breaking the sabbath.

Chapter and verse, please.

>Show us where Sabbath was instituted in creation?

Gen. 2:2-3

>Your prophetess chose to teach you about an instituted sabbath that causes you to study the bible as commentary to her writtings.

I don't have a prophetess; I used the Bible as I noted above.

From a non-SDA POV, see Phelps' The Sabbath @ Google books.

>SDA confuse the facts

Some evidence please.

>that the apostles were first sent from Christ Church to convert Jews first.

Well, they had certianly done that by the 5th century at least when most Christians around the Med were still keeping the Sabbath. I'm not sure how many Jews were around in India in the 1540's when the Christians there were still keeping the Sabbath. Likewise, Ethiopia around 1600.

Cribstyl · Nov 16, 2010

David Conklin said:
crib said:

Levitcus proves it was a ceromonial commandment forever.

Click to expand...

Chapter and verse, please.

Apply this to understanding not commentary...Lev 16:31It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
Lev 24:8Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.

Numbers proves that they had zero history to reference about what to do when someone was found breaking the sabbath.

Click to expand...

Chapter and verse, please.

Apply to understandingESV - Num 15:34 -They put him in custody, because it had not been made clear what should be done to him.

>Show us where Sabbath was instituted in creation?

Click to expand...

Gen. 2:2-3

When we apply these texts to understanding, man was not given anything. Your answer implies that we must add commentary to understanding of these text.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
(It's all about God's work and God's rest, not man.)

>Your prophetess chose to teach you about an instituted sabbath that causes you to study the bible as commentary to her writtings.

Click to expand...

I don't have a prophetess; I used the Bible as I noted above.

In what you noted, (sabbath institution) you abuse the understanding declared by Moses because he never said that Sabbath was given to man.

>SDA confuse the facts

Click to expand...

Some evidence please.

This dialog is evidence of bible alone vs commentary alone

>that the apostles were first sent from Christ Church to convert Jews first.

Click to expand...

Well, they had certianly done that by the 5th century at least when most Christians around the Med were still keeping the Sabbath. I'm not sure how many Jews were around in India in the 1540's when the Christians there were still keeping the Sabbath. Likewise, Ethiopia around 1600.

Somebody is ignoring the facts taught by scripture, in order to establish some questionable doctrines.
Acts1,2 proves that the day of Pentecost, only Jewish believers were added to the Church.(not to the Jewish synagogues but to the followeres of Christ.)Act 2:5 ,Act 2:37 -Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?
also verses 38,39,40
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

The fact that the Gospel was preached on that Sunday, does prove that Sunday preaching was never the mark of the beast
The fact that baptism were conducted on that Sunday, does prove that Sunday was never the mark of the beast.
The fact that communion was given on that Sunday, does prove that Sunday was never the mark of the beast.
The fact that 3000 Jews were added to the church on that Sunday, does proves that Sunday was never the Mark of the beast.

David Conklin · Nov 17, 2010

>Apply this to understanding not commentary...Lev 16:31 It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever

As the NIV study Bible notes this chapter refers to the Day of Atonement.

David Conklin · Nov 17, 2010

The fact that the Gospel was preached on that Sunday, does prove that Sunday preaching was never the mark of the beast
The fact that baptism were conducted on that Sunday, does prove that Sunday was never the mark of the beast.
The fact that communion was given on that Sunday, does prove that Sunday was never the mark of the beast.
The fact that 3000 Jews were added to the church on that Sunday, does proves that Sunday was never the Mark of the beast.

Red-herrings. I never claimed it was, nor has any SDA that I know of.

Byfaithalone1 · Nov 17, 2010

David Conklin said:
Red-herrings. I never claimed it was, nor has any SDA that I know of.

David . . . Let's imagine that John Doe one day receives the mark of the beast. Can you explain the specific types of things that John Doe may have done (or not done) that would have earned him the mark? I'm hoping for a bit more detail than a general statement such as "kept the sabbath" or "failed to keep the sabbath." My question is relevant to your reply to Cribstyl and it has some real urgency to it. If folks are in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast, we really need to know what needs to be done (or not done) to avoid it. Can you help us with that?

Thanks!

BFA

Cribstyl · Nov 17, 2010

David Conklin said:
Red-herrings. I never claimed it was, nor has any SDA that I know of.

First of all, your socalled red herrings are primarily what other Christians do on Sundays. We teach and preach about resting in Jesus not about
Sabathkeeping as you do religously.

I never claimed it was, nor has any SDA that I know of.

You're a scholar.....Do you know Ellen G White?

"When the test comes, it will be clearly shown what the mark of the beast is. It is the keeping of Sunday."
Ellen White, Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 980.

"The mark of the beast is the papal sabbath."
Ellen White, Evangelism, p. 234.

"What Is the Mark of the Beast?--John was called to behold a people distinct from those who worship the beast and his image by keeping the first day of the week. The observance of this day is the mark of the beast." Ellen White, Letter 31, 1898.

SDA consider it a transfer of Sabbathkeeping to Sunday, but we simple call it worship not sabbathkeeping.
Q: Why attack our worship to God?
A: To pursuade ignorant Sunday church members during your campmeeting or Revelation seminars.

Cribstyl · Nov 17, 2010

David Conklin said:
>

crib said:

Apply this to understanding not commentary Lev 16:31 It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever

Click to expand...

As the NIV study Bible notes this chapter refers to the Day of Atonement.

I stand corrected, Lev16 is the annual sabbath.

Byfaithalone1 · Nov 17, 2010

First of all, your socalled red herrings are primarily what other Christians do on Sundays.

I would agree that there is much misinformation in this forum regarding the beliefs of those who participate in corporate worship on days other than Saturday. Many (possibly most) Christians are not sabbatarians at all (i.e. not on Saturday and not on Sunday). SDA eschatology does not account for this.

BFA

David Conklin · Nov 17, 2010

>SDA eschatology does not account for this.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

David Conklin · Nov 17, 2010

>You're a scholar

I am not.

>"When the test comes, it will be clearly shown what the mark of the beast is. It is the keeping of Sunday."
Ellen White, Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 980.

I accented the relevant qualifier for you.

Princessdi · Nov 17, 2010

Ok I should have made myself more clear here. I should have said after the time of the COI, not just Exodus. Also, I know that you know that all "Sabbaths" spoken of were not "the sabbath" of the 4th commandment, right?

What I believe comes from my own study of the Bible through the understanding conviction of the Holy Spirit. i don't get my beliefs from EGW. Sorry. So you can dial that attitude back about 5 notches. I don't hae to prove to you anything, myh beliefs are my own and I am not here to convince you. The Holy Spirirt will work with you on your own understanding of God Will for your life. That is not my concern.

Next, I believe I said that the writers did not realize that they would be writing to soo many future generations. What they knew had little or nothing to do with God's plan for their writings. He just inspiried them to write. They wrote what they knew, and He took care of the rest. There fore,you will find things there that seem to be written to those with prior knowledge. We know that only a few wrote prophetically, most wrote litereally, baiscally their experience and/or history. All of what I have just said, plus what you said can be true. It was the Bible authors part to obey the inpiration of God and write, it was God's part to protect and preserve those writings to be a witness and blessing to future generations.

Even though I am a member, I can't speak for the motives of the church. I must agree with you about the impression we have given others. I believe, like the Jews of Christ times, we have went astray in some areas, focusing on the ceremonies/rituals, even traditions given us, instead of the God to which they were to point us.

Christian doctrines predates Paul. He did not invent them. You can go back to the OT to Enoch, Job. it was being established with men like these, and ahost of others before Paul They were not called "Christian" in their day, but it ws the same. What are the 10 Commandments? The prohphecies of Jesus birth? Those vlaues under a different name. Paul was a reminder to some the bringing the gospel the word to others, but the message. What Paul taught should have been taught by the Jews except the strayed from the path. It is the message that God wanted the COI to teach the nations around them, be an example, but they weren't. They strayed so far from their mission, that men like Paul, John, and the other apostles had to come along and leave the established church to start something altogether new to present the original Message.

Cribstyl said:
Respectfully Ms, that is proven as false, because more is said about sabbath outside of Exodus in the Old Testament. Here's the unrefutable evidence in red Exd(12)Lev(12)Num(3)Deu(3)2Ki(5)1Ch(1)2Ch(3)Neh(9)Psa(1)Isa(4)Jer(4)Eze(3)Amo(1)
"Sabbaths" Exd(1)Lev(9)1Ch(1)2Ch(4)Neh(1)Isa(2)Lam(2)Eze(12)Hsa(1)

Levitcus proves it was a ceromonial commandment forever.
Numbers proves that they had zero history to reference about what to do when someone was found breaking the sabbath. So your idea about no mention should mean they always knew what to do. It's seem more likely that Sabbath breaking was new to their history.

Nehemiah and Ezekiel written generations later recalls and proves Sabbath was first given to only one people as a sign and not to the whole world in the book of Genesis.

In Genesis God chose to tell us about His rest from all His work of creation, and also forbidden fruit that was a sin for Adam. Show us where Sabbath was instituted in creation?
Your prophetess chose to teach you about an instituted sabbath that causes you to study the bible as commentary to her writtings.

Correction should be words from God, not commentary design to create new questions never asked or answered by God's word.
The primary goal of this thread is to examine claims about sabbath institution, not to stone you. SO, If you have biblical text to "fully believe", please post it, or what you fully believe is not scriptures.

Cool, my point of view is; The bible is God's word to the world, it's a living word for all Generations. The gospel of the Kingdom has nothing to do with Sabbathkeeping. The apostle waited for the Holy Spirit to open their understanding, so what they preached after Penticost are the doctrines of the church which Jesus promised to build. The law and the prophets were read in the synagogue on the Sabbaths. SDA confuse the facts that the apostles were first sent from Christ Church to convert Jews first. SDA point to sabbath days in which those sent from the church to preach about Jesus Christ as if Sabbathkeeping was the established day for Christain worship. SDA method of teaching the bible is bent to incorperate the doctrines rather than the commissioned Gospel of Jesus Christ.

If the Church that Christ promised to build was already built before Pentecost then you maybe you can give me doctrines from before then. Christian doctrines are found primarily in Paul's letters, because Jesus called and chosen him as the apostle to the Gentiles.

Respectfully

Cribstyl · Nov 17, 2010

Princessdi said:
Ok I should have made myself more clear here. I should have said after the time of the COI, not just Exodus.

You're still not coming in clear.

Also, I know that you know that all "Sabbaths" spoken of were not "the sabbath" of the 4th commandment, right?

If you do the Math, your statement was still false by a longshot. All sabbaths are signs, the weekly Sabbath for sure. If you dont agree here the proof. Exd 31:13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that [ye] may know that I [am] the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Eze 20:12Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.
Eze 20:20And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

What I believe comes from my own study of the Bible through the understanding conviction of the Holy Spirit. i don't get my beliefs from EGW.

Sorry. So you can dial that attitude back about 5 notches. I don't hae to prove to you anything, myh beliefs are my own and I am not here to convince you. The Holy Spirirt will work with you on your own understanding of God Will for your life. That is not my concern.

If you feel attitude then check yours. Disagreement should allow us to get to the facts, rather than feeling attacked.

Next, I believe I said that the writers did not realize that they would be writing to soo many future generations. What they knew had little or nothing to do with God's plan for their writings. He just inspiried them to write. They wrote what they knew, and He took care of the rest. There fore,you will find things there that seem to be written to those with prior knowledge. We know that only a few wrote prophetically, most wrote litereally, baiscally their experience and/or history. All of what I have just said, plus what you said can be true. It was the Bible authors part to obey the inpiration of God and write, it was God's part to protect and preserve those writings to be a witness and blessing to future generations.

Even though I am a member, I can't speak for the motives of the church. I must agree with you about the impression we have given others. I believe, like the Jews of Christ times, we have went astray in some areas, focusing on the ceremonies/rituals, even traditions given us, instead of the God to which they were to point us.

Christian doctrines predates Paul. He did not invent them. You can go back to the OT to Enoch, Job. it was being established with men like these, and ahost of others before Paul They were not called "Christian" in their day, but it ws the same. What are the 10 Commandments? The prohphecies of Jesus birth? Those vlaues under a different name. Paul was a reminder to some the bringing the gospel the word to others, but the message. What Paul taught should have been taught by the Jews except the strayed from the path. It is the message that God wanted the COI to teach the nations around them, be an example, but they weren't. They strayed so far from their mission, that men like Paul, John, and the other apostles had to come along and leave the established church to start something altogether new to present the original Message.

Whatever.....Too many contradictions to correct. you'd ignor or accuse me of attacking you if I questioned more of your statements.

Thank you for the dialog. Have a blessed life.

Cribstyl · Nov 17, 2010

David Conklin said:
>You're a scholar

I am not.

>"When the test comes, it will be clearly shown what the mark of the beast is. It is the keeping of Sunday."
Ellen White, Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 7, p. 980.

I accented the relevant qualifier for you.

The accented does not change those quotes.
AHA! Now I see your gameplan..... Your defence of plagiarism is simply to deny the alegations and make unrelated statements.

Byfaithalone1 · Nov 18, 2010

David Conklin said:
>SDA eschatology does not account for this.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Perhaps you might be willing to respond to my previous post? Here is what I wrote:

Let's imagine that John Doe one day receives the mark of the beast. Can you explain the specific types of things that John Doe may have done (or not done) that would have earned him the mark? I'm hoping for a bit more detail than a general statement such as "kept the sabbath" or "failed to keep the sabbath." My question is relevant to your reply to Cribstyl and it has some real urgency to it. If folks are in danger of one day receiving the mark of the beast, we really need to know what needs to be done (or not done) to avoid it. Can you help us with that?

Let's deal directly with the elephant in the room. If you're calling us out of "her," please tell us exactly what you are calling us to come away from.

BFA

Princessdi · Nov 19, 2010

You do the same.

Cribstyl said:
Have a blessed life.

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