Infant Baptism

Elder 111 · Jun 7, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Jesus wasn't covered with earth.

He was placed on a shelf in a kind of cave surrounded by air.

Yet it is Jesus' burial - entombment - that saint Paul uses as the link between baptism and burial.

If you take saint Paul's words at face value then nobody is covered with water (or earth).

So in the cave the sky was above Him? not rock and dirt that we call earth. Or maybe water.

ViaCrucis · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
What are you referring to? We are talking about baptizing babies. What did Jesus do that justify baptizing babies?

He gave the Great Commission.

-CryptoLutheran

Elder 111 · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
He gave the Great Commission.

-CryptoLutheran

Able to: your words. I believe that is the point. Babies are not able to on their own. Salvation is personal, a personal decision not putting water on an ignorant babies and saying they are saved.

ViaCrucis · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
Able to: your words. I believe that is the point. Babies are not able to on their own. Salvation is personal, a personal decision not putting water on an ignorant babies and saying they are saved.

Infants are able to be baptized. It happens all the time.

And no, salvation is not a personal decision, it is the effectual working of God's grace upon the sinner, creating faith in him, freely justifying her, and bringing him into the fullness of Jesus Christ our Lord.

An adult is no more able to choose salvation than an infant can. The two are equally helpless, and equally dependent upon the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
So our baptism is not like Jesus. Where is it stated that "christian baptism includes babies?

Jesus' baptism was saint John the Baptist's kind of baptism.

Saint Paul recognised that saint John the Baptist's baptism was not Christian baptism.

That is why saint Paul had to baptise the Ephesian disciples despite the fact that John had baptised them before Jesus was crucified.

Acts 19:3-5 He asked, 'Then how were you baptised?' They replied, 'With John's baptism.' (4) Paul said, 'John's baptism was a baptism of repentance; but he insisted that the people should believe in the one who was to come after him -- namely Jesus.' (5) When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus,

The church baptises babies for the same reason that God commanded the Israelites to circumcise baby boys.

It is not because babies make a public profession of their own faith.

It is because the babies born into Christian households rely on the faith of the church.

God promises to make them holy.

1 Corinthians 7:14 You see, the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through the brother. If this were not so, your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
So in the cave the sky was above Him? not rock and dirt that we call earth. Or maybe water.

All around him was breathable air. Not dirt.

Above the air was rock and dirt and sky above that.

I reckon you miss the point because you have a point you want to make that the passage does not make.

We are indeed buried with Christ in baptism, but we are not submerged in water or dirt.

Romans 6:3-5 Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? (4) We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. (5) For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.

Elder 111 · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
Infants are able to be baptized. It happens all the time.

And no, salvation is not a personal decision, it is the effectual working of God's grace upon the sinner, creating faith in him, freely justifying her, and bringing him into the fullness of Jesus Christ our Lord.

An adult is no more able to choose salvation than an infant can. The two are equally helpless, and equally dependent upon the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

So an adult does not and can not choose salvation?

ViaCrucis · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
So an adult does not and can not choose salvation?

Correct. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, which is the gift of God, and not by our works.

-CryptoLutheran

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
Correct. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, which is the gift of God, and not by our works.

-CryptoLutheran

Exactly how is your brand of "monergism" different from Calvinist double predestination?

narnia59 · Jun 7, 2013

Rev Randy said:
I couldn't think of anything smart enough to say

narnia59 · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
I'm still really perplexed why the method of baptism only seems to matter to those who say it's little more than a religious ritual with no real substance anyway.

"Baptism doesn't do anything, but you better do it right."

-CryptoLutheran

Odd indeed.

narnia59 · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
What are you referring to? We are talking about baptizing babies. What did Jesus do that justify baptizing babies?

He stated "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

Your position is that children aren't even "smart" enough to receive the kingdom of God. The position of Christ is they're the perfect candidate.

narnia59 · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
So our baptism is not like Jesus. Where is it stated that "christian baptism includes babies?

Christ did not receive a Christian baptism. He was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. People who had been baptized by John later had to be baptized into Christ. So indeed, they are not the same thing.

Where does it say that Christian baptism doesn't include babies?

The only baptisms recorded in the New Testament are those of adult converts to the faith. There are no baptisms recorded of children raised in a Christian home who are later baptized. There is no instruction to parents about waiting to baptize a child until they're smart enough. The argument you're trying to make from silence (no specific instances of baptizing babies) applies to your own position (no specific instances of baptizing children who were raised by Christian parents and are now 'smart' enough). So, by your own logic we should never baptize those children either.

Lydia's conversion makes it clear that the faith of the head of the household brought the whole household into the baptismal covenant. Read Acts 16. The Lord "opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul" and "she was baptized, with her household". One act of faith; baptism of a household.

St. Paul also makes it clear that a believing parent makes their children holy; otherwise they would be unclean (1 Cor 7:14). Children do not go from being unclean to holy because they are smart enough. They are made so by the faith of their believing parent, who by their authority brings them into the Christian covenant, according to St. Paul.

So do you really believe there are no children in the body of Christ? Christ's body is exclusive of children?

narnia59 · Jun 7, 2013

Elder 111 said:
Able to: your words. I believe that is the point. Babies are not able to on their own. Salvation is personal, a personal decision not putting water on an ignorant babies and saying they are saved.

Are they able to decide on their own they are holy instead of unclean?

I'd also like to propose the concept that these babies aren't nearly so 'ignorant' are you're making them out to be. Rather more our lack of ability to perceive what's going on in their minds until they can communicate their thoughts in a way we can understand. So perhaps the ignorance in that regard lies more with us.

Intelligence has been the blocking factor for many in receiving the gift of faith. You're making it a pre-requisite to receive the gift. Scripture places no such condition on receiving faith, and parents have full authority over their children to bring them into the covenant relationship.

shturt678 · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
I'm still really perplexed why the method of baptism only seems to matter to those who say it's little more than a religious ritual with no real substance anyway.

"Baptism doesn't do anything, but you better do it right."

-CryptoLutheran

shturt678 · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
Infants are able to be baptized. It happens all the time.

And no, salvation is not a personal decision, it is the effectual working of God's grace upon the sinner, creating faith in him, freely justifying her, and bringing him into the fullness of Jesus Christ our Lord.

An adult is no more able to choose salvation than an infant can. The two are equally helpless, and equally dependent upon the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

shturt678 · Jun 7, 2013

narnia59 said:
He stated "Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

Your position is that children aren't even "smart" enough to receive the kingdom of God. The position of Christ is they're the perfect candidate.

I think these little ones coming to Jesus have nothing to offer and in need of everything hence they should be our example and not the other way around.

MoreCoffee · Jun 7, 2013

shturt678 said:
I think these little ones coming to Jesus have nothing to offer and in need of everything hence they should be our example and not the other way around.

They have nothing to offer, nothing to bring, and are not smart enough to understand a lick of what Jesus said except "come to me all of you who are weary and heavily burdened and I will give you rest"

God keep you my friend and brother and may he bless you with a hugely high IQ and stuff so you can bask in still being insufficient to understand.

None of us creatures can understand what it's like to be God.

But we sure as sure can be are sufficient to be loved by God.

Because all the love come from him and we don't need to be smart to receive his love.

childofdust · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
I'm still really perplexed why the method of baptism only seems to matter to those who say it's little more than a religious ritual with no real substance anyway.

"Baptism doesn't do anything, but you better do it right."

-CryptoLutheran

Representing those who believe baptism does something very much indeed--that is is powerful, effective, and not at all "just a symbol"

it is actually participating in the burial of Christ--something an infant cannot do since it has nothing to die for (it is innocent)--and participating in the resurrection of Christ to new life--something an infant cannot do because that involves following Yeshua and no infant knows Yeshua, let alone can follow him.

Putting a babe to death in baptisim is as ludicrous as trying to wash a stain off something brand-new and unstained. And it is EXTREMELY dangerous since it assumes to influence something that doesn't even exist yet, leaving the child open to being taken over by its sinful ways later in life since no sinful ways existed yet to be put to death.

holyrokker · Jun 7, 2013

ViaCrucis said:
I'm still really perplexed why the method of baptism only seems to matter to those who say it's little more than a religious ritual with no real substance anyway.

"Baptism doesn't do anything, but you better do it right."

-CryptoLutheran

My point of wonder, as well.

"Jesus was dunked, so we need to be dunked so that we are following His example." Yet if we truly want to follow His example, we'd all have to fly to Israel to be baptized in the Jordan River just like He was.

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