Infant Baptism

If you leave Mormonism, your baptism becomes null and void. That's okay --- actually very good. I was baptized as a believer afterwards. One can be baptized as an infant and grow up to be a proclaimed atheist.


But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:18

Phoebe Ann said:

If you leave Mormonism, your baptism becomes null and void. That's okay --- actually very good. I was baptized as a believer afterwards. One can be baptized as an infant and grow up to be a proclaimed atheist.

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Yes, one can be baptised as an infant and become an atheist in later life. One can be baptised as a believer and become an atheist in later life. The point here is not that baptism is faulty but rather that people choose what they want at every stage of their lives and sometimes people who believe choose to reject belief at a later time in their life.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:18

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MoreCoffee said:

Nevertheless Jesus said, "I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." and Peter wrote, "Baptism ... now saves you" and Paul wrote, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

So, baptism matters, it matters a lot. And if baptism is what God does for us rather than what we do to tell everybody what we believe then the time at which one receives baptism is not the fulcrum for this lever but rather the fulcrum is God's grace in baptism.

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Providing one is baptized in connection with the valid name. I always like "buried in connection with him" rather than actually physically diying right then and there, and be entombed with him then. Had my coffee late this morning, ie, I thought I was left behind. Just your ol' old buddy Jack

shturt678 said:

Providing one is baptized in connection with the valid name. I always like "buried in connection with him" rather than actually physically diying right then and there, and be entombed with him then. Had my coffee late this morning, ie, I thought I was left behind. Just your ol' old buddy Jack

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The valid form for baptism is to be baptised with water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This is valid because baptism is God's means of giving grace to his people as Father and as redeemer and as advocate.

Don't go drinking too much coffee dear shturt678.

MoreCoffee said:

Nevertheless Jesus said, "I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." and Peter wrote, "Baptism ... now saves you" and Paul wrote, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

So, baptism matters, it matters a lot. And if baptism is what God does for us rather than what we do to tell everybody what we believe then the time at which one receives baptism is not the fulcrum for this lever but rather the fulcrum is God's grace in baptism.

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i have my own theology that nulls your conclusions so meh. two different views that we'll never agree on XD

Going Merry said:

i have my own theology that nulls your conclusions so meh. two different views that we'll never agree on XD

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Everybody can have their own theology and enjoy it immensely and even use it to dismiss any other theology but these things do not make it true.

The truth is a matter for the whole world and as such it is committed to writing in the sacred scriptures and in the public teaching of God's Church.

Individuals may create a theology to suit themselves; none can prevent them from doing so but clearly not every individual's theology is true because many differ one from another; yet one thing is assuredly true, that two contradictory theologies cannot both be true.

So, choose what matters most, seek truth, and avoid the trap of being satisfied with your own theology unless it happens to be the theology that God gives to his people.

Going Merry said:

i have my own theology that nulls your conclusions so meh.

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His conclusions however have a historical basis that can be traced in an unbroken, continuous line to the middle of the 1st century ce.

In other words, his argument is right and those that disagree are not authentically representative of the historic, ancient, and orthodox Christian faith proven by those continuous witnesses,

two different views that we'll never agree on XD

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There are WAAAY to many people with socks, don't you agree, Sieben?

PaladinValer said:

There are WAAAY to many people with socks, don't you agree, Sieben?

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So? Everyone should know already simply by my beliefs.


and who cares about the historic faith lol

MoreCoffee said:

Everybody can have their own theology and enjoy it immensely and even use it to dismiss any other theology but these things do not make it true.

The truth is a matter for the whole world and as such it is committed to writing in the sacred scriptures and in the public teaching of God's Church.

Individuals may create a theology to suit themselves; none can prevent them from doing so but clearly not every individual's theology is true because many differ one from one another; yet one thing is assuredly true, that two contradictory theologies cannot both be true.

So, choose what matters most, seek truth, and avoid the trap of being satisfied with your own theology unless it happens to be the theology that God gives to his people.

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i agree two contradictory theologies cant be true. just its really hard to believe certain ways when you have no faith at all in 'church' writings and their tradition books. without those books i doubt you'd believe the same way either

MoreCoffee said:

Yes, one can be baptised as an infant and become an atheist in later life. One can be baptised as a believer and become an atheist in later life. The point here is not that baptism is faulty but rather that people choose what they want at every stage of their lives and sometimes people who believe choose to reject belief at a later time in their life.

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I haven't reached a position on infant baptism but I believe our choices depend on whether or not God has changed our hearts.

Going Merry said:

i agree two contradictory theologies cant be true. just its really hard to believe certain ways when you have no faith at all in 'church' writings and their tradition books. without those books i doubt you'd believe the same way either

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But I am not without those books; I have books and am satisfied that in them is much that is true and perhaps some that is not. It is, however, not the books but God who is the author of truth and should I decide to follow your theology what guarantee would I have that it was true except your word for it or your claims about what the bible means. I choose to believe the church's teaching because her teaching is both consistent with sacred scripture and vouchsafed by the same scriptures in the Lord's promises recorded therein.

Atheists never had genuine faith. Had they been born again they would continue to believe.

Phoebe Ann said:

Atheists never had genuine faith. Had they been born again they would continue to believe.

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So some say, yet Jesus himself chose a Judas and what can we say but "amen" to his choice? It is not for us the second guess God's grace, when one who once believed and now does not crosses our path it is not for us to dismiss their former profession of faith but rather to encourage a return to it. God's grace is given as God himself pleases and when he pleases so we ought always to be faithful in preaching and proclaiming the gospel in the hope that God will be gracious to those who hear and to us that we may be found to have laboured faithfully as his servants.

Going Merry said:

So? Everyone should know already simply by my beliefs.

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Socks are usually not well-received. Often, they signify some sort of administration or penalty dodge.

and who cares about the historic faith lol

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Given the fact that the Christian faith is, like Judaism, a religion based on a shared history of believers (first the establishment of previous covenants with all humankind, then of the Hebrew people and lastly of Christians regardless of ethnicity) and also based on the fact that truth, by its nature, is eternal, historic faith is absolutely required.

If it isn't historic, it isn't authentically Christian. Those that hold to those unhistoric beliefs often are Nicene so they are Christians, but those beliefs that have no basis in proven history cannot be truly described as orthodox, especially if they disappeared or were declared to be unorthodox...even heretical, by how dogma is arrived at: as a Church.

Paedobaptism is found in Holy Scripture and is historically found. Beliefs of baptismal regeneration are also historically linked. However, the concept of credobaptism-only has no ancient history and its theology is inextricably linked to the theology of heretical groups like the Pelagians and Donatists.

Hyperindividualism is a concept that is utterly foreign to Christianity. The Holy Writ always talks of community, first a nation and then a Church membered by many nations. The idea of "i have my own theology that nulls your conclusions so me" is beyond the pale. Theology is communicative, not individual, just like prayer. In the original Greek, the Nicene Creed says "We believe," not "I believe." Furthermore, the Lord's Prayer begins with "Our Father", not "My Father.

True individualism in Christian theology is doing one's part to better the whole. We shine brightest when we contribute. Sometimes that isn't recognized, and that is wrong; we're not drones, but the Church isn't made up of independent people but interdependent people as one visible, institutional community. St. Paul likens it to an organism, and he is right to do so.

In short, it doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else thinks but what the community thinks, and as a historic religion, we listen to the entire community. Time holds no power in the Christian faith. Christ proved that in spades.

MoreCoffee said:

The valid form for baptism is to be baptised with water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This is valid because baptism is God's means of giving grace to his people as Father and as redeemer and as advocate.

Don't go drinking too much coffee dear shturt678.

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I don't know why you don't wear two hats,ie, RCC and modern Lutheran. Both of the former, till today, don't understand at Matt.28:19, ie, "in all these phrases the onoma signifies the revelation that the Triune's name is core based upon, ie, invalid revelation X valid Triune name = to coin your favorite term "error." How's da Hawaiian math on this one? Hey, I use to take baby steps too eating that baby food, now the Hawaiian steak and lobster of the valid Word and valid baptizing these these precious little infants in the valid revelation + valid name. Just your ol' old non-modern Lutheran ELCA type Jack although now they would excommunicate me rather quickly. :o

Going Merry said:

So? Everyone should know already simply by my beliefs.

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What's that?

"Seeker?"

MoreCoffee said:

So some say, yet Jesus himself chose a Judas and what can we say but "amen" to his choice?

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Jesus knew Judas was a devil. Jesus never made a mistake.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:70

MoreCoffee said:

...God's grace is given as God himself pleases and when he pleases so we ought always to be faithful in preaching and proclaiming the gospel in the hope that God will be gracious to those who hear and to us that we may be found to have laboured faithfully as his servants.

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I agree.

shturt678 said:

Baptize an infant, or an adult, in the wrong name (revelation[/B that the Triune God's name is core based upon), immediately the anti-christ comes in to dwell, eg, IIThess.2:4 & Rev.13:14, only for sterters. Don't be concerned as the modern Lutherans even view this non-modern interpretation as outdated, ie, let alone all the other businesses, oh, sorry, church settings' view.

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Yeah . i recall some angels teaching something regarding "the wrong name" in my initiation teachings . seemed quite a point of contention from the essence that passed through me . thanks for the explanation .

Michael Collum said:

Yeah . i recall some angels teaching something regarding "the wrong name" in my initiation teachings . seemed quite a point of contention from the essence that passed through me . thanks for the explanation .

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I get the 'point" and thank you. Always appreciate you and your words. My name is Jack and kids in school had a party with my "wrong name," they were bigger than me, and meaner, I just bit my lip...owe.