Indulgences - where, why and who started it

[Wookie]

Afternoon folks...

Now I don't know if this has been discussed before as I'm new here, and to clear the waters a little - I'm not Catholic - at least not yet. I recently got converted to Christianity about 6 weeks ago - I say that 'cos I woke up one morning and bingo, there it was, out of the blue.

Anyway, I am now investigating the various traditions and all that and have come across the granting of indulgences in the Catholic faith.

I agree with the idea of forgiveness of sins, ie. confess to God infront of a priest and he has authority to forgive sin. That seems fair concidering what Jesus told the Apostles. But I don't get this indulgence thing. How has this tradition come about. As far as I know once you are forgiven a sin, then thats it, until next time of course but pleanary indulgences and partial indulgences don't seem to be mentioned. Also, earning an indulgence by reciting a Rosary in church, or a partial one by doing it privately. Who comes up a says how many you have, which sin is indulgenced - basicly how does it work? To me this seems a little like point scoring but I have probably missed something somewhere.

Maybe I need to read more about it but I thought some of you fine chaps and chapettes may be able to help out.

Also, penance, ie. saying a few prayers or doing a good work to atone for the forgiven sin. Not sure where that comes from, in the bible either. If the sin is forgiven then why do you have to go out and do something else towards it. I thought works don't count towards gaining forgiveness...

All enlightenment will be gratefully consummed, pondered over and digested slowly.

Please remember that I am a new Christian - so all questions are asked out of ignorance - I don't want to cause a flame war - I just need answers thats all. I'm not 'anti' any tradition and currently attend a Catholic church mainly because I prefer the services - so far. These are questions about aspects of the Catholic faith that I don't understand.

Thanks in advance

Peace, long life and smiley stuff
Wookie

 

[VOW]

To Wookie:

This is from a previous post by Wolseley:

Indulgences are part of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.

Specifically, this doctrine states that a person must have the last vestiges of venial sin purged from their soul before entering heaven. Purgatory, then, is a state of the purgation, which removes the last impurities from the soul. It is the last part of Christ's remission of an individual's sins, the first two being Baptism and Confession.

This remaining effect of venial sin is sort of like somebody coming in from a motocross; they are covered with mud, and although they can strip off all their clothes, they're still not going to walk into the living room with new white carpeting until they shower first and get the mud and dirty water off their face, hands, and hair. Same thing with Purgatory. You are a sinner. Redeemed, yes, but still a sinner. When you die, your sins have all been remitted by Christ, it's true---but you still remain a sinner, and so Christ has provided you with this purgational process to cleanse you of all effects and inclination to sin before you eneter heaven, so you enter it perfectly pure.

An indulgence is a full or partial remission of a part of this purgation process, applied to an individual who is in Purgatory. The doctrine grew out of the Jewish practice of saying certain prayers every day for a year after the death of a lived one, with the belief that such prayers helped to purify the soul of the loved one and hastened the loved one's soul to heaven; you can read more about this if you type "Kaddish" into your browser. I'll see if I can find an old link later.

So basically, if you say some prayers or perform a good work, with the intention that the spiritual benefit of those prayers or works are to be applied to the poor souls in Purgatory, then God, Who counts these works as part of the "treasury of graces", will duly apply them to those souls, thus shortening their stay in Purgatory.

The Church believes that one person can perform spiritual action that can be applied to others, and which are beneficial to others. This is exactly what Christ did for us---He died on the Cross, not for himself, but to apply His actions to us.

In the Middle Ages, indulgences were abused; people were told if they paid a certain amount of money, they could gain an indulgence. This was a violation of the teaching, and after the Council of Trent, it was made clear that indulgences could not be bought or sold. The sale of indulgence was what (rightly) set Martin Luther off. Since Trent, however, indulgences have been obtained entirely through spiritual means, and anyone who tells you that the Church uses them to obtain money is about 500 years out of date. Protestant televangelists who see giant Jesuses bilk more money out of people than the Catholic Church does with indulgences (or anyhting else, I might add).

You don't hear a lot about indulgences any more, but if nothing else, at the very least they encourage people to perform good works, instead of sins, and that in itself is a good thing.

And to clarify penance: that isn't something you do to earn forgiveness. Penance is to make you focus on what you have done, and to help you concentrate on God and His mercy. Penance can range from reciting some prayers, simply spending time on your knees focusing on God, to doing "acts of charity," depending upon what the priest feels you need to do to concentrate your attention on God. Your sins have OFFENDED God, and you need to make yourself more aware of Him, and His constant presence in your life.

If you have any more questions, please ask!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Wookie]

Hi VOW

Tnx for that. Penance definitley cleared up there. That makes sense now - it's not punishement - it's a way of helping you tune back in - so to speak.

With the indulgences though, I now take it that if I 'earn' an indulgence, then it is for someone who has passed on and is now residing in purgatory - with the hope that it shortens their stay in there (whether it be an individual or everyone). These, I take it, then have no effect on our own stay in purgatory (which would seem to me to be a far better way of working it than how I originally thought it operated).

Well... I think thats how I see it....

Thanks again... nothing quite like getting misconceptions sorted out is there...

Peace and long life
Wookie

 

[KC Catholic]

I wanted to welcome you Wookie, first as a new Christian - always good to add another member to Christs family.

Also, welcome to our forums here. Feel free to ask any question you want, we have very knowledgable people to either anwser the question or point you to the right resource.

Just though I'd welcome you!

 

[Wookie]

Thanks KC

I'd just like to say if there's one thing I've found it's that Christians are so friendly and welcoming. The first church service I went too almost scared me because I'm just not used to people making sure I'm ok, do I need anything, have you got this, that or the other - even, 'I'll sit here if you want then anything you want to ask, please do so.'

That was an Anglican service - proper C of E - I haven't been back yet but must do ... I can't just give each denomination one bite of the cherry - to coin a phrase.

Why can't everyone show that sort of welcome, helpfulness and charity during everyday life? It's such a pity, I mean I DO know why it doesn't happen but if only people would lighten up about themselves and see how much damage is being done... wow .. sorry, don't mean to start that sort of thing here - wrong forum....

Anyway, thanks again for your welcome... I will no doubt have many more questions for most of the other forums on here - although I think I'll stear clear of the Ladies Forum - that sounds a little frighteneing to me.. - plus I don't really fit the bill anyway...

Peace and good will
Wookie

 

[LilyLamb]

Welcome Wookie - welcome to the family of Christ and to these forums - I hope to see you around

I wanted to share from my personal experience - when Father Paul was teaching me, about reconciliation (i.e. confession) and penance, he gave the "example" of a man coming in to confess an addiction to pornography - his penance in addition to prayers might be to contribute the amount of money he had spent on porn to a woman/children's shelter and to spend time in counseling for his addiction.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Yeah man, Vow rocks, eh?

And the others here too!

 

[VOW]

To Souljah:

:o


Awww, thanks!



Peace,
~VOW