Indivisible and yet divided?

WalterPlinge · May 1, 2009

Hello.

I was wondering if any members of C.F. could help me out with two related items please?

This has to do with the nature of the Trinity, it's indivisibility and what happened to it (I mean Them, of course) when Jesus took away the sins of the world by dying on the cross. Here's my current understand about this...

1. The Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal and eternal; holy, pure and totally free from sin. They are indivisibly one God, yet fully distinct and fully realized persons in their own right.
All power and all knowledge are unchangeably and unchallengeably theirs.
There can never be (nor has there ever been) a time or condition that has ever separated them in any way.

So far, so good - I hope.
If I've tripped up with anything here, please feel free to correct me. I appreciate any help in these matters.

Now to that which I'm not quite so sure about.
2. Jesus was incarnated in the same flesh as you or I, yet was still God.
Though not omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient while on Earth, He was still holy, pure and without sin.
This was necessary to fulfill prophecy and to provide a just and acceptable sacrifice for our sins - something no human could ever do.

...and that which I'm curious about.
3. When He died on the cross He paid in full the just and due penalty for sin that was rightly ours, that is death and eternal separation from God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the two items mentioned above.

Firstly, could you please point me to some passages of scripture that will assist my understanding?
It would be really helpful if these could relate to the questions listed below. Thanks.

Q1. Having declared the indivisibilty of the Trinity in point 1, what is the accepted Christian position on the relationship of the incarnated Son to the rest of the Trinity?
I assume that there was no separation of the Triune Godhead, so does this mean that the Son was simultaneously present in heaven and on Earth - one in eternal form and the other in human form?

(Please note that I fully accept that logic will be of limited help here.
I am simply framing my questions in a logical way to see at what point this otherwise useful tool breaks down.
Currently I conclude that where human logic fails, faith must take over. It looks to me as if there are some things that must be taken on faith, leaving rational enquiry behind. Perhaps this is where you can help me?)

Q2. When Jesus died His spirit went down to the place of the dead. I've read about Hades, Gehenna and Sheol as being locations where the spirits of the dead abide. So which of these, if any, did Jesus's spirit go to?

Q3. Was Jesus's spirit ever separated from the Trinity in this place?

Q4. Jesus was without sin in His life on Earth. Did His holy purity extend beyond the moment of His death and into the three days before He rose again?
This question is trying to take into account the dual punishment for sin - Death and eternal separation from God.
Jesus successfully dealt with Death by dying Himself, that much I understand.
But was He then separated from God (in any way) to satisfy the second part of the penalty for sin?

(I'm inclined to think not, in this case. Because eternal separation from God, as far as I understand it for unrepentant human beings, will only occur on Judgement Day, in the fires of Hell.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now folks, if I've messed up with anything here, please correct me!

I look forward to your replies.

Thanks in advance,

Walter.

drich0150 · May 1, 2009

I think that the indivisibility of the Trinity is a religious concept, and not a biblical one. Not all churches follow this doctrine.

that is death and eternal separation from God.

Again a possible religious understanding of scripture.. Scripture say that their was a separation, not that it was eternal.

When Jesus died His spirit went down to the place of the dead. I've read about Hades, Gehenna and Sheol as being locations where the spirits of the dead abide. So which of these, if any, did Jesus's spirit go to?

From what I just read about the death and resurrection of Jesus Scripture doesn't say where Jesus went after he died.. If their is an explanation then it is most likely a religious one and not a biblical one..

Was Jesus's spirit ever separated from the Trinity in this place?

We do know that Jesus was separated from the Father on the cross.

Jesus was without sin in His life on Earth. Did His holy purity extend beyond the moment of His death and into the three days before He rose again?

I don't know what you are asking here.

Chesterton · May 1, 2009

WalterPlinge said:
Q1. Having declared the indivisibilty of the Trinity in point 1, what is the accepted Christian position on the relationship of the incarnated Son to the rest of the Trinity?
I assume that there was no separation of the Triune Godhead, so does this mean that the Son was simultaneously present in heaven and on Earth - one in eternal form and the other in human form?

We believe "God is everywhere". I think this question assumes that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are not on Earth, but we believe they always are. Bear in mind the scene at Jesus's baptism - the Father, the Son and the Spirit were all present there.

I know we speak of us "down on Earth" and God "up in Heaven", but of course that is metaphorical. If nothing else, but to emphasize that God is transcendant (and that He is the one and only God, not a god who lives here in a volcano or in the moon or something ).

As far as Jesus's earthly body, of course there was time when it was not here on Earth, then it was here, now it's gone again. But the Son had to become one of us to become the sacrifice, and his body had to leave Earth at some point to certify the resurrection.

Q2. When Jesus died His spirit went down to the place of the dead. I've read about Hades, Gehenna and Sheol as being locations where the spirits of the dead abide. So which of these, if any, did Jesus's spirit go to?

(Skipping this because I know others here know the distinction of those words a lot better.)

Q3. Was Jesus's spirit ever separated from the Trinity in this place?

Right before he died, Christ said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" I think this indicates some kind of separation, which was necessary to effect the sacrifice.

Q4. Jesus was without sin in His life on Earth. Did His holy purity extend beyond the moment of His death and into the three days before He rose again?
This question is trying to take into account the dual punishment for sin - Death and eternal separation from God.
Jesus successfully dealt with Death by dying Himself, that much I understand.
But was He then separated from God (in any way) to satisfy the second part of the penalty for sin?

(I'm inclined to think not, in this case. Because eternal separation from God, as far as I understand it for unrepentant human beings, will only occur on Judgement Day, in the fires of Hell.)

Yes, Christ is always and forever holy; it's our impurity which was and is imputed to him.

Think of the parable of the Prodigal Son; the son has sinned, but has paid the price of repentence. He returns to his father, and his father shows him greater love and affection than he does to his "good" sons who have not been prodigal. There was a separation of Christ, and for the sake of the love which God is, there is an eternal separation in this sense: Christians believe Christ is the lamb slain "from the foundation of the world". Also, in John's vision in Revelation, even in the future, Christ is pictured as "always" wounded: "behold, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah...which hath prevailed. And I beheld, and, lo, there stood a lamb as it had been slain". It's a beautiful contradiction: a conquering lion at once also a slain lamb, and the idea runs throughout Christian thought, and throughout the human experience generally, if you think about it. But the impurity imputed to the Lamb is not God's fault, it's ours. If God has any fault, it is only loving us too much.

I know all this is a mystery, but I hope that made a little sense.

Emmy · May 2, 2009

Dear WalterPlinge. I did not grow up as a Christian, I knew Christ from school, and God I was more afraid of, than not. Something happened to me during my late teens, and I have carried it with me all my life. In the beginning I did not know what to make of it, then when I had much time on my hands, to ask myself: what is this life all about? and was invited to church, where I met Christ again, I gradually saw, and realised that God is real. Nothing can take this away from me, I KNOW. The Trinity is easy to understand when one looks at it, simply and without all the very clever Science. God-Father who created us in His image, we moved away from Him, and became steeped in wrongdoings and selfishness. God, who loves us, did not give up on us. We know that God is Spirit, Holy Spirit, He is everywher and sees everything, He also knows and is able to do Everything. The O.T. promised the coming of a Messiah, a suffering Servant, who dies for Mankind. Jesus God-Son, part of God`s Holy Spirit, and Mary a worthy Virgin, chosen by God as the human vessel to bring forth Jesus, complete Man and complete God. Jesus showed us God as He really is, a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back again, as His adopted sons and daughters. After Jesus had done His work on Earth, and God had raised Him up, Christ told His disciples that He is going back again to the Father, and they will send the Holy-Spirit to finish the work which Jesus had begun. The saving of Mankind. Jesus Christ is our Intercessor, He pleads our prayers to the Father. God-Father, God-Son, and God Holy Spirit, ONE GREAT GOD, working together to redeem us. " Whosoever will, may come." Our Task: to Repent, exchange our selfish and wilful character into loving God first, and all others as we love our selves, selfless and no strings attached. I say this humbly and with love, WalterPlinge. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

DrBubbaLove · May 2, 2009

In a way we cannot possibly understand Jesus the Man, is both 100% man and 100% God. So no, when Jesus died, it was the death of a Man, like any other man and not of God. The Man in that case is sepperated, the Divine as you rightly point out cannot be sepperated.

WalterPlinge · May 5, 2009

Hello again.

My thanks to everyone for their replies.

drich0150 said:
I don't know what you are asking here.

Thanks DRich, but I think Chesterton has answered that one for me.

However, there is a further question I'd like to put to you, that stems from the wording of your reply.

Perhaps you could help me out in understanding the difference you are drawing better "religious" things and "biblical" things?

Thank you,

Walter.

Van · Sep 3, 2009

Hi Walter, the concept of the Trinity resolves a paradox, one God in three persons or persona. So to divide the trinity and come up with three Gods violates the concept of one God. But does the Bible teach that the "persona" of the trinity can appear to us separately and yet remain one God? Yes.

The Bible says God is all powerful and "all knowing" but just what the author had in mind, all meaning everything past, present and future, or something less like Jesus knows all about the people He deals with, is unclear. On the other hand, the bible is crystal that God is almighty, that He can do as He pleases.

Next, there are differing views of the reconciliation. My view is that reconciliation comes to two parts. First when Jesus died and God accepted His sacrifice as the propitiation for the whole world, God reconciled "mankind" meaning Jesus provides the way for whoever believers in Him to have eternal life. But this "general reconciliation" this paying the ransom for all, did not save any individual. We must trust in Jesus and God must accept our faith - count it as righteousness - and then God saves us.

One way to think of it is like an oil lease. Say a rich Texan buys an oil lease on a section of land. All the oil has been so to speak "bought with a price" yet it remains in the ground, and the Texan can extract whatever barrels he chooses. The reconciliation is like that, Christ dying on the cross purchased the oil lease, but only through faith in Christ will we be chosen for extraction. The "penal substitution" theory of the reconciliation creates more questions than it answers and therefore does not seem like a sound understanding.

It is not logic but the limits of knowledge that requires all of us to live by a measure of faith. When I sit in a chair, I assume it is not defective and will support me, I trust in my expectations. There is evidence for the possibility of God, which if you care to accept it, provides the basis of believing in God and His Christ.

Q1, Was God the Son present in heaven simultaneously with God being "in the flesh" on earth? As mentioned before, we can dodge this issue by the doctrine of "omnipresence" God is everywhere. But it is also true that God the Son made himself unequal with God when He became flesh. So I think the best answer is No.

Q2, After Jesus died on the cross, where did Jesus go? Hades or more specifically the part of Hades called "Abraham's bosom." He released these "captives" and brought them, the Old Testament Saints, to Paradise.

Q3, Was Christ's spirit ever separated from the trinity when He descended to "the lower regions." No, but again we have God the Son appearing to people (their human spirits) so all they probably saw was "one God."

Q4, Was Jesus separated from God in any way as the penalty for our sin? Yes and No.
He was separated from God while alive and on the cross, as a consequence of becoming sin for us, but when He died, His Spirit, God the Son, returned to God. This is based on Jesus asking the Father to "receive" His Spirit. So the "yes" refers to a separation that occurred and the "no" says Jesus was separated because He became sin, and not as a penalty for our sin.

theVirginian · Sep 3, 2009

WalterPlinge said:
Q2. When Jesus died His spirit went down to the place of the dead. I've read about Hades, Gehenna and Sheol as being locations where the spirits of the dead abide. So which of these, if any, did Jesus's spirit go to?

He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. I Peter 3:18-19

I run into historical snippets like this occasionally that are used to illustrate a broader point. The snippet itself is told in a way that the author assumes the reader knows what he's talking about, which I don't, but there it is.

Van · Sep 3, 2009

Hi Walter, just to add a clarification, my answer to Q2 was not in the slightest based on or supported by 1 Peter 3:18-19. During the time Jesus was on earth, the Spirit of Christ, God the Son, spoke through Jesus. But before the Word became flesh, the Spirit spoke through the Prophets see 1 Peter 1:11. So what this verse says is way back at the time of Noah, the Spirit of Christ spoke through Noah but only a few, that is eight, were saved. The rest who were preached to are now in Hades, and so they are the spirits in prison now, but were living during the time Noah preached. The point is when we suffer in carrying out the ministry of Christ, we are in good company, Jesus suffered on the cross and Noah suffered great rejection.

No the answer to Q2 is supported by Ephesians 4:8-9 which says Jesus led captives in His train when He ascended to heaven. I believe they came from Abraham's bosom, because Hebrews 11:39-40 says the Old Testament saints were made perfected at the same time as the New Testament saints.

Sorry if this is TMI

Indivisible and yet divided?

WalterPlinge

Newbie

More options

drich0150

Regular Member

More options

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

More options

Emmy

Senior Veteran

More options

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

More options

WalterPlinge

Newbie

More options

Van

Contributor

More options

theVirginian

Regular Member

More options

Van

Contributor

More options

Similar threads

Indivisible and yet divided?

Newbie

Regular Member

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding

Senior Veteran

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Newbie

Contributor

Regular Member

Contributor

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency