Inconsistencies

[Normski]

Hi All,

I work in a non-medical position within a Childrens Hospital, and every day I see many young children suffering from painful and sometimes terminal illnesses. These children are not old enough to have chosen to sin. So why does a benevolent god, who is said to love all, let innocents suffer. I know that some will say that we have all sinned - and I certainly do not deny that I have. But surely a newborn baby, who dies within hours of birth can not have sinned. So why are they allowed to suffer.

This incongruity between actions and character is one of the main reasons I find it very difficult to have faith, and remain an agnostic for the time being.

Please do not take these comments as anti-religion. I am just attempting to reconcile my thought processes.

Take care

 

[Emmy]

Dear Normski. I can really understand your concern for those suffering children, but what exactly would you like God to do? Do you,perhaps, believe God makes them suffer, because they have sinned? If you knew God`s Love for us, you would also know that God is not responsible for their pain, these illnesses are taking place in this imperfect world, we live in. I thank God for kind people like you, for helping doctors and nurses. I also like to believe these children have parents who pray for them, who plead with God to help. And one ting I am absolutely sure about, Normski, God will not let the children suffer any more, than they can bear. God is our loving Heavenly Father, and we can trust Him to watch over us, that no pain or Evil will go further than He allows. I say this with humility and trust. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[unkern]

2 Samuel 12:23 "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

-This was after David committed adultery and had a child with her.

Deuteronomy 1:39 "And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad they will enter the land."

1 Corinthians 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

-This verse makes me question if only by the parents the child may get to heaven

 

[stumpjumper]

I would say that God has given us moral freedom and we exist within a world that operates via natural laws and it is through those laws and natural freedom that we have been brought into being.

The first thing I would say is that I don't believe any illness is the direct result of sin. Some are brought about by sinful lifestyles, yes. But, overall, we become sick either because of a predisposed genetic flaw or because we acquire an illness from a virus or bacteria so I don't really follow your reasoning that newborn babies shouldn't come down with an illness.

You may find some value in this theodicy to the PoE:
Theodicy for a world in process

 

[Normski]

'we become sick either because of a predisposed genetic flaw'
But as creations of God who is responsible for our genetic structure?

'that newborn babies shouldn't come down with an illness'
If we are put upon this earth to use our free-will to decide whether or not we have faith, how can a newborn have the chance to make such a decision.

'we exist within a world that operates via natural laws and it is through those laws and natural freedom that we have been brought into being'
This seems to be evidence of an evolutionary existance, rather than a creationist belief.

I am happy to admit that my knowledge of the bible and religious studies is very limited, so I may be approaching this incorrectly. But I do not understand how a benevolent God, who loves all, and created all, would let his innocent creations suffer. This is the road block on my pathway to faith.

 

[arunma]

Hi All,

I work in a non-medical position within a Childrens Hospital, and every day I see many young children suffering from painful and sometimes terminal illnesses. These children are not old enough to have chosen to sin. So why does a benevolent god, who is said to love all, let innocents suffer. I know that some will say that we have all sinned - and I certainly do not deny that I have. But surely a newborn baby, who dies within hours of birth can not have sinned. So why are they allowed to suffer.

This incongruity between actions and character is one of the main reasons I find it very difficult to have faith, and remain an agnostic for the time being.

Please do not take these comments as anti-religion. I am just attempting to reconcile my thought processes.

Take care

The story of the man born blind largely addresses this issue:

As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." Having said these things, he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing. (John 9:1-7)
​

The disciples of Christ wondered if this person was born blind because he had somehow sinned in the womb, or if perhaps God had visited the iniquity of the man's parents on him. But as Christ taught, there is a purpose behind suffering. It is true that suffering is often the result of a man's sin. On the other hand, sin can also result in great material prosperity. Many preachers teach the false doctrine that sin will always lead to physical harm and drain one of his resources. This is not true. In this mortal life, sin appears to pay off. Many adulterers and fornicators never suffer physically for their sin. This year American oil CEOs were rewarded for their sin with windfall profits. Living a holy and righteous life will almost never make one rich.

Clearly there is a divine purpose behind suffering. Suffering can sanctify the believer and cause the unbeliever to repent. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, and all who practice false religions instead of believing in him will perish in the eternal fire of hell. Suffering provides an earthly portrayal of an eternal truth. Indeed, this portrayal is often made through God's own people, and not unbelieving sinners. In Jesus' own time many innocent Jews suffered from the persecution of Pilate and from natural disaster. Jesus used this as a picture of the far worse fate that awaited all unbelievers.

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-5)
​

Don't disbelieve because others suffer. Marvel, rather, that Christians believe in the face of suffering, and know that God's patience and forbearance are meant to lead all people to repentance from sin and false religions, and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Normski]

Thank you for your reply, but I am still unclear.

'Clearly there is a divine purpose behind suffering. Suffering can sanctify the believer and cause the unbeliever to repent.'

How does this apply to the newborn child? How can they have time to repent? It seems that at the very least, we should all be given an equal opportunity to make up our mind, thereby utilising the gift of free-will.

 

[arunma]

Thank you for your reply, but I am still unclear.

'Clearly there is a divine purpose behind suffering. Suffering can sanctify the believer and cause the unbeliever to repent.'

How does this apply to the newborn child? How can they have time to repent? It seems that at the very least, we should all be given an equal opportunity to make up our mind, thereby utilising the gift of free-will.

It is important to remember that the suffering is sometimes for the benefit of those not suffering. For example, the people who suffered under Pilate and who died from the collapse of the Tower of Siloam clearly did not profit from their suffering. But that suffering inspired others to repent and believe in Jesus.

The issue of the salvation of newborn children is one not very clearly addressed in Scripture (and God probably has a wise reason for his silence), so we simply trust God's justice and mercy here. However, the death of a child can draw parents closer to God, and can cause them to rely solely on Jesus Christ. Quite recently my pastor's grandson died immediately before birth. In this sorrow the family did not apostasize from the faith, but learned to find their contentment in Christ with a spirit of thanksgiving. So then we can see that suffering, like all things that happen, is not without a divine purpose.

I hope this helps. Please let me know if there's anything I can clarify.

 

[stumpjumper]

But as creations of God who is responsible for our genetic structure?

Well I think most Christians would agree that God is responsible for what occurs within creation even if not everything that happens is willed by God.

By God giving us moral freedom, we can make our own choices and disobey God's will and guidance for our lives. God would still be responsible because he gave us that ability but Christians would say that our freedom exists for a greater good one of which is that we can freely accept God's grace.

If we are put upon this earth to use our free-will to decide whether or not we have faith, how can a newborn have the chance to make such a decision.

I would say I'm a bit agnostic about what happens to children who die very young . But, regardless, newborns may not be able to exercise their freedom to accept God's grace but the gift of freedom was given to them and for them to be able to use that gift the natural world has been created to operate under set natural laws which can lead to newborn babies getting sick and dying.

This seems to be evidence of an evolutionary existance, rather than a creationist belief.

I don't think there is a real dichotomy between evolution and creation. I would say that it is very likely that God created the world through the mechanism of macroevolution.

You'll find that there are a good number of theistic evolutionists are here.

I am happy to admit that my knowledge of the bible and religious studies is very limited, so I may be approaching this incorrectly. But I do not understand how a benevolent God, who loves all, and created all, would let his innocent creations suffer. This is the road block on my pathway to faith.

I think each situation is unique but, also, that suffering exists for a greater good one of which is that it may bring us to embrace God's grace in our lives.

 

[Normski]

"It is important to remember that the suffering is sometimes for the benefit of those not suffering. "

This seems unfair on those who are made to suffer for the benefit of others.

"The issue of the salvation of newborn children is one not very clearly addressed in Scripture (and God probably has a wise reason for his silence), so we simply trust God's justice and mercy here. "

Unfortunately I can not bring myself to have blind faith, and issues such as this further hold me back.

"However, the death of a child can draw parents closer to God, and can cause them to rely solely on Jesus Christ. Quite recently my pastor's grandson died immediately before birth. In this sorrow the family did not apostasize from the faith, but learned to find their contentment in Christ with a spirit of thanksgiving. "

I am very sorry to hear of their loss, but I am glad that their belief gave them some reprieve from their grief.

 

[ebia]

Hi All,

I work in a non-medical position within a Childrens Hospital, and every day I see many young children suffering from painful and sometimes terminal illnesses. These children are not old enough to have chosen to sin. So why does a benevolent god, who is said to love all, let innocents suffer. I know that some will say that we have all sinned - and I certainly do not deny that I have. But surely a newborn baby, who dies within hours of birth can not have sinned. So why are they allowed to suffer.

This incongruity between actions and character is one of the main reasons I find it very difficult to have faith, and remain an agnostic for the time being.

Please do not take these comments as anti-religion. I am just attempting to reconcile my thought processes.

Take care

Because of sin, because we collectively fail to take up our proper role in creation, we live in a fallen world where suffering is a reality. God has acted, in the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus, to restore creation and bring that suffering to an end. When God's Kingdom finally comes fully to bear "every tear will be wiped away" in the words of Isaiah.

 

[unkern]

I think were forgetting someone in the whole mess, remember who we gave power to, satan. Its actually surprising that anything good happens. Some of his different names are iblis:"he causes despair", abaddon:"destruction or place of destruction", the prince of this world, I believe archon:"Ruler"

When the bible said your family would be cursed down to the 4-5 generations it also meant that naturally, the parents would bring a baby into their own sin. Jesus came to destroy the devil. the one that we gave power to.

 

[unkern]

I think were forgetting someone in the whole mess, remember who we gave power to, satan. Its actually surprising that anything good happens. Some of his different names are iblis:"he causes despair", abaddon:"destruction or place of destruction", the prince of this world, I believe archon:"Ruler"

When the bible said your family would be cursed down to the 4-5 generations it also meant that naturally, the parents would bring a baby into their own sin. Jesus came to destroy the devil. the one that we gave power to.

 

[Sarapin]

Like you this issue is personal to me and I've spent some time thinking about it.

My current thoughts are pretty much summed up in two words, but extrapolated...

This is a sin-cursed and messed up world and in such a world messed up things happen without any [divine] reason or purpose, i.e. "**** happens".

I don't believe that God in any way causes or is responsible for the pain, suffering, and death that we experience in our lives. I mean, why is it that some people die in car crashes while others do not? Why do some people get cancer and others not? Of those who do, why do some survive and others die? The blunt answer is that that's just how it is in this world. Largely it's just chance and the natural consequences of our own actions or inactions.

To be fair, with regards to people being born with debilitating or abnormal conditions (which you brought up), I am not certain on this point. There is some Scripture that seems to imply that God is actively involved in the creation process of new human beings (Psalm 139:13-16). Is the Psalmist referring to the process itself which God instituted or something more (namely that God actually 'guides' the process) or something else entirely (like the 'conscious self' or soul)? I'll leave that you to because I'm not even sure I could guess. Suffice to say I don't believe that creating a young life with Down's Syndrome is in any way consistent with a loving and gracious God, assuming that He is in complete control of the process. Hence why I am more inclined to believe that it is the process that God instituted or the creation of a person's soul (that is, who they are or their conscious self/centre) that David is talking about.

All of that said, I do believe that God works through those painful times of intense suffering, disappointment, hardship, and death that we are bound to experience as a result of living here. It is often during those difficult times in our lives that we think about and become aware of just how much we need something more ... how much we need God. This may be reason why God tolerates and allows the evil, pain, suffering, and death in the world ... to show people their need for Him and that He has exactly what they're looking for and that He offers it freely if only they'd cry out to Jesus. God doesn't promise us a life free from pain, suffering, and death, but what He does promise is that when everything falls that we'd be held.

I believe that God can use our trying moments that life throws at us for our eventual good (Genesis 50:20, Romans 5:3-5, 8:28), or when no good can come of it (such as the death of a loved one) I believe that He comforts people. When my uncle died, my nan remarked that she felt God's strength and comfort give her the ability to deal with that difficult time of having to bury her oldest son. I don't believe that it was God's plans for my uncle to die, but in a fallen world, death is a natural part of it as is disease and cancer. God never promised that He'd heal him, but He did promise that He would go with my uncle through the valley of the shadow of death and give him the comfort and strength that he needed to finish the race well (Psalm 23:4) and I believe that He did just that.

The same thing I believe applies with children who are suffering from diseases and other debiliations and their families. I don't believe for a second that God intended that for them, but I also don't read in Scripture that God promises to heal and save people from physical pain or death. I believe that God is with many of those families and children, Christian families in particular because they are His. What I do read in Scripture is what Jesus thinks of death: When He came to the tomb of His friend, Lazarus, He wept. He wept even though He knew that He was going to raise him from the dead shortly after. I believe that He saw and felt what death does to the deceased's loved ones.

So if He is so moved by it, why doesn't He stop it? The Bible says that when Jesus returns He'll finish this creation and create a new heavens and new Earth where there will be no more pain, no more evil, no more suffering, and no more death because there will be no more curse on creation (that was placed on creation as a consequence of our sins). So why the wait? Peter explains that God is tolerating the current order of things for the moment because He doesn't want any to perish, but all to come to repentance and be saved. There will come a day when Jesus will return and do away with this world and its pain and restore it to it's former glory.

Just as an aside, I think that it is a mistake to assume that infants and children are 'innocent' and should thus be immune to the consequences of sin (namely death). All human beings (babies and children included) are sinners. You see a sinner isn't defined as such because they commit sins, rather, we sin because we are sinners ... it is in our nature to sin. Some verses which seem to indicate this include Psalm 51:5, John 3:16, and Romans 5:14. Infants, like the rest of us, are in a state of sin and need to be redeemed ... so no one is really 'innocent'. What is interesting is that Jesus warned against forbidding children to come to Him, which implies that children, like adults, need to come to Christ. That said, I believe that God is a compassionate God and that He is just in the way that He acts and as such He cannot hold infants and children accountable and so I believe that He will show them grace and allow them into heaven.

That's my two cents anyways...


All of that said, I don't think that we, as limited individuals, can understand the plans of God who sees the big picture (consider also that our lives, difficulties, and sufferings on this planet is so small when compared to eternity). We can only speculate as to how God acts and why He does the things that He does and why He allows the things that He allows. Ultimately we just have to trust that He is good and just and that He knows what He is doing and that one day it'll all become clear.

 

[salida]

You need to ask yourself why does mankind suffer at all? Those babies that die go to heaven because they haven't reached the age of accountability - which various from person to person. Its a fallen world - and I believe God will judge us according to how we react to it the environment or our circumstances. This earth is a dressing room to prepare for heaven - its not meant to be fair as our human reasoning understands it. God wants us to trust Him and we are put to the test in this world concerning this. Our mission is the Great Commission and to give to the poor, needy and disabled. How are we personally going to help that suffering child or children? Occasionally, I give to St. Jude or to certain child hospitals but God has given me a heart to give to certain things on a monthly basis. How are we being a good steward with the $ God has allowed us to have? How are we using it to help others?

Plus, suffering also spiritually purifys us. My personal suffering has done this and has made me more like Jesus.

 

[The-Doctor]

Dear Normski. I can really understand your concern for those suffering children, but what exactly would you like God to do? Do you,perhaps, believe God makes them suffer, because they have sinned? If you knew God`s Love for us, you would also know that God is not responsible for their pain, these illnesses are taking place in this imperfect world, we live in. I thank God for kind people like you, for helping doctors and nurses. I also like to believe these children have parents who pray for them, who plead with God to help. And one ting I am absolutely sure about, Normski, God will not let the children suffer any more, than they can bear. God is our loving Heavenly Father, and we can trust Him to watch over us, that no pain or Evil will go further than He allows. I say this with humility and trust. Emmy, sister in Christ.

I agree with this. Well said!

 

[Hog Red]

Better to live 5 minutes and spend eternity with God than live to be 100, die of natural causes and find yourself in a place of never ending torment.

Thank you for doing what you do to help others.