Inconsistencies in Answers in Genesis

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Inconsistencies in Answers in Genesis

The bible says that the earth is fixed, and that it has foundations. The sun goes around the earth, according to the bible. I believe that a lot of the bible is inspired by God, but not all of it. (I exclude the books of Daniel and Revelation) These verses seem to indicate that the earth is flat…

1. Dan. 4:10-11: "I saw ... a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof great. The tree grew ... and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth." The earth must be flat else the tree would not be visible to the ends of the earth.

2. Matthew 4:8: "Again, the devil takes [Jesus] up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." Same argument, the Bible writers clearly state here that they believe that from a high enough mountain you could see the whole world.

3. Rev. 1:7: "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Same argument.

I happen to believe that the Genesis account of creation is the truth, and is inspired by God. But all those on Answers in Genesis are inconsistent, in that they reject geocentrism, (for whatever reason) even though the bible plainly states in many places that the earth is fixed, and does not go around the sun in an orbit, but the sun goes around the earth. All these following passages show this to be so, and that the earth is built on a foundation…

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.

Psalms 19:4-6
yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs his course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.

1 Chronicles 16:30
tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

Psalms 93:1
The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.

Psalms 96:10
Say among the nations, "The Lord reigns! Yea, the world is established, it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity."

2 Samuel 22:16
Then the channels of the sea were seen, the foundations of the world were laid bare, at the rebuke of the Lord at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

Psalms 18:15
Then the channels of the sea were seen, and the foundations of the world were laid bare, at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

Psalms 102:25
Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Proverbs 8:27-29

Isaiah 48:13
My hand laid out the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.

Psalms 104:5
Thou didst set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be shaken.

Isaiah 24:18
He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

Job 38:4-6
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements -- surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone?

At the moment, I believe in what the bible says, and I accept the geocentric model of the universe, despite the popular beliefs of this age. (Unless it can be proved to me that heliocentrism is the truth). I also believe that evolution is false, and the Genesis account is true. So, Answers in Genesis is inconsistent, if they insist that we accept the creation account in Genesis, and yet want us to somehow explain away all the passages in the bible which state that the earth is fixed and based on foundations, and the sun goes around the earth etc. Their argument is severely weakened because they have caved in to heliocentrism, without looking into it at all. Some people do investigate this issue.

I don't believe that the earth is flat, but that those passages in Daniel and Revelation and Matthew were written by people who did believe that the earth is flat.

This sort of thing is the sort of fundamentalist doctrine which I have over the years distanced myself from...

It is common for sceptics to attack the Bible for teaching a primitive cosmology, including a flat earth and geocentrism. They use these arguments to claim that the Bible cannot be the word of God, rightly pointing out that God would not make errors in his Word. Neither would Jesus, if he were truly God in the flesh, endorse erroneous teaching. However, such sceptical arguments against the Bible’s cosmology have been repeatedly refuted by conservative Christians.1
More recently, the enemies of Christ have acquired an ally in the professing evangelical Paul H. Seely, who has also claimed that the Bible makes scientific errors. In giving ammunition to sceptics and others who want to destroy the Bible, thus feeding into the world system and giving it comfort, in some ways Seely is more dangerous to Christians than atheists. Although his papers are not cited in any Bible commentary I could find at the Reformed Theological Seminary at Orlando, Florida, his views seem to be beloved of Christians who desire to compromise the plain teachings of Scripture with the man-made theories of evolution and billions of years. Therefore this article is justified as pulling out this tree of misinformation by its roots.

 

[miamited]

Hi hiscosmigoldfish,

I'm sure it's probably not what you intended but as I read all of your passages I can't help but think this post shows less the inconsistencies with the 'Answers in Genesis' group and more lack of wisdom of the poster. However, don't be offened because that's only my understanding and I'm sure there's a whole crowd of teachers that will agree with you.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

Hi hiscosmigoldfish,

I'm sure it's probably not what you intended but as I read all of your passages I can't help but think this post shows less the inconsistencies with the 'Answers in Genesis' group and more lack of wisdom of the poster. However, don't be offened because that's only my understanding and I'm sure there's a whole crowd of teachers that will agree with you.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

It seems to me that the writer of Genesis, first chapter, believed in an ancient idea, that the earth was a disk, on top of water, and that there was a solid dome, perhaps made of bronze, above, above which was water, hail, snow etc. Perhaps that idea was preserved through to Revelation where giant hailstones were reserved to later be dumped on everyone at some time during a tribulation. When I did some research on the matter a few years ago, I did see that the writer was talking about a disk. I had thought that the water below and above had some more profound meaning, now I doubt it.
When it says, let the dry land appear, you can imagine the land coming up out of the water as a disk. Despite all that, I still don’t believe in evolution. And I can see the beauty in creation.

 

[Look Up]

Hi hiscosmicgoldfish,

I think it will be a helpful start to consider the conventions of ancient apocalyptic genre (of which the Revelation of John and parts of Daniel are examples along with 2 (or 4) Esdras and Zechariah.

Then too, to be fair to what the ancient authors meant, one must consider conventional poetic and literary devices (Hebraisms, parallelisms, symbolism, typology, metaphors and so on), anthropomorphism, antecedent theology (including by way of allusion), themes, and miscellaneous notes like that the word "all" (then as now) is not necessarily or always used with no intended contextual boundaries ("all" within implied or understood limits).

Whatever Answers in Genesis claims may be, it would seem historically fair to the biblical authors--as to any other author--to read their writings as close to the way they intended their writings to be read as possible (even if interpretations of apocalyptic genre are difficult and sometimes obscure at least to me).

Thus geocentrism in the creation account in Genesis must be read (at least in my view) as part of an introduction to the books of Moses in which the origin of Man and the Fall and Eden are important thematically for the later narratives concerning human sin, the giving of the law in response to sin, redemption, and an eventual restoration of Eden, of which the Promised Land is a type. The author(s) of the creation account was/were not interested in making physics equations simpler than in pre-Copernican European days any more than they seemed interested in microbiology, but they were interested in God's relationship with Man in the garden and in establishing God as Lord of all creation.

The Genesis creation account is not necessarily a denial of the simplicity of physics equations and gravitational pull. But it seems fair to consider focus, point of view, and perspective, in part as when we might say the sun rises and sets and goes around us from our point of view practically speaking.

 

[miamited]

It seems to me that the writer of Genesis, first chapter, believed in an ancient idea, that the earth was a disk, on top of water, and that there was a solid dome, perhaps made of bronze, above, above which was water, hail, snow etc. Perhaps that idea was preserved through to Revelation where giant hailstones were reserved to later be dumped on everyone at some time during a tribulation. When I did some research on the matter a few years ago, I did see that the writer was talking about a disk. I had thought that the water below and above had some more profound meaning, now I doubt it.
When it says, let the dry land appear, you can imagine the land coming up out of the water as a disk. Despite all that, I still don’t believe in evolution. And I can see the beauty in creation.

Hi HCG,

Well, be careful that you don't let your way of imagining how things might have happened to be understood by you as the truth. I don't find any support that the first chapter of Genesis posits any such position as you claim. The first misconception that I see in your understanding is that the author of this passage of Scripture is man. No! The author of the first chapter of Genesis, just as the whole of Scripture, is God, and God knows now and knew then, the truth.

So, since we know that the earth is a sphere and that God knew that the earth was a sphere, then if you understand differently it's your understanding that is not correct. God does not lie nor does He have any design to cause us to misunderstand! Why you might understand the claim that God made the dry land appear to somehow infer that the earth is flat is, quite frankly, beyond me. I just don't see any such connection. Whether the land mass rose or the waters receded to cause the dry land to appear doesn't conjure in my mind that that claim would somehow teach that the earth is flat.

Yes, you will find pictures made by men that might represent the earth as somehow flat, but you need to understand that those are pictures made by men, who just like so many men today, don't understand the truth of God. And to say, "Well, it's what some of the Jews believed..." Well, listen most of the Jews didn't understand who Jesus was when he came either. And yet, God spent several hundred years causing to be written several dozen prophecies to them, of just who he was. Jesus even read one of the prophecies about himself to a congregation of Jews as the very beginning of his ministry, and still they didn't make the connection. They believed that Jesus was a liar just as they repeatedly claimed as he continued his ministry. Friend, man's heart is wicked, who can know it?

God created the earth just as it is and those who would try to teach otherwise just don't understand God. Don't be swayed by smooth sounding arguments based on the wisdom of this world. If it is a fact that the earth is a sphere, then all understanding of Scripture that one would use to claim this to not be true, is misunderstood. Misunderstood just as those same Scriptures tell us who Jesus is and so many misunderstand.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[jilfe]

God bless you Ted, for taking the time to make all this clear.

Here is an example God showed me one time when I was in a quandry about some biblical passages.

One was the passage where God spoke to abraham

20: And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21: I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Now I know God is ALL knowing, yet He would speak this sort of a thing, as I was thinking about this the Holy Spirit gave me the answer to all this confusion I had about the Bible where it seems to contradict itself,

God spoke this to me, gather all the informat5ion from the Bible that speaks of God's divine attributes.

ALMIGHTY, ALL KNOWING, EVER PRESENT, ALL SOVREIGN,
INFINITE IN WISDOM, ETERNAL IN POWER, NO BEGINIG OR ENDING, CREATOR OF ALL, ABOVE ALL CREATION,ect...

Than read the verse I just got mixed up in, that seems to be contradictory, and realize how foolish I was to even question this as being contradictory, then God said to grow up and stop letting the devil make me question God's divine attributes and character, and begin to listen to what God is speaking about a scriptuure verse.

The Bible was inspired by God, from all the authors who wrote the original manuscripts, to the council that God called into existance for the Holy Spirit to speak once again with perfect divine inspiration, to know what manuscripts shall be removed and which ones will stay, to make complete what God has chosen to be given to His creation of human kind, that we can learn and live by for the glory of God, and our own good, for us to have the fullness of life that God has intended for His children to have.

When I see on TV these documentaries that talk about the Bible missing some manuscripts, bla bla bla,,, but they seem to forget that those manuscripts were kept hidden by God because He did not want them in His WORD, the Bible is complete and every word written was from manuscripts that God preserved and brought to light in His due timing, so the Holy Spirit can inspire a group of His chosen people to put the manuscripts together to complete a Bible from Gods own workings through man.

What God showed me is that the Bible is written with a lot of seemingly inconsistencies and contradictories, and questionalble things, so that people who don't want to have anything to do with God, can have a means by which they can pick apart and discredit God's Word.

And those who want to know God, and love and serve Him, can understand the deep things of God, and learn of His goodness and majesty, that brings fullfillment in every aspect of our lives.

It seems that the Word of God is a stumbling block to those who don't want God, and a stepping stone to higher grounds in life for those who choose to love God.
So instead of questioning God's Word, I need to question my interpretation of God's Word, when I get confused about scripture passages.

And the Holy Spirit will always shed light on the passage that is always for my betterment in life.

Thank God He gave us His Word.
　
　
　

 

[miamited]

Hi Jilfe,

I agree. My default position is that if there is anything in the word of God that I don't understand or I can't synchronize with other parts of the Scripture, it is my lack of understanding and not a fault with God's word.

Sadly, so many, despite Jesus regularly referring to the Scriptures as truth and Paul telling us point blank that all the Scriptures are God breathed and come from the Holy Spirit, have bought into this idea that they are the works of men. Surely if we operate under that understanding, then there is no doubt even in my mind that they are surely full of error. But, if we operate under the understanding that God wrote the Scriptures through His Holy Spirit, then we can be assured that there is no error, we just don't understand.

Here we have the position set out that men wrote the passages in question and were therefore based on the understanding that they had of natural things in that time. I, on the other hand stand on the position that God wrote the Scriptures and He has always and will always know all things. He can neither err nor lie.

This position of somehow the Scriptures being affected by the knowledge of men comes up all the time in the discussion of the beginning. And yes, nearly everytime I speak with my Father I give thanks to Him that He has not left me without a true testimony of all that He has done.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again HCG,

Let me just answer one of your complaints:

Rev. 1:7: "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Same argument.

Now you believe that passage to not be true because there is no way that everyone on the earth can see an object at one point in the clouds. Now, I will start off and tell you that I don't know how it will be done, but here are a few possibilities for you to consider so that you can scratch this one off your list.

Do you realize that it take only 90 minutes for the ISS to orbit the earth? Within 90 minutes, every eye upon the earth with the ability to see such a small object so far away could see it. So, does the passage claim that Jesus will not be moving around the earth?

Do you realize that even if Jesus appeared in the sky standing in one place, say, over Jerusalem, that within about 14 hours every eye on the earth would have been in a place upon the earth that would have been able to see him? I don't believe the passage necessarily makes clear that every eye will see at the same time.

Do you also realize, and I'm again not supposing that this might be how that claim is resolved, with modern video broadcast that within an hour, pretty much anywere on the earth, a live feed of Jesus standing in the clouds could be seen all over the earth? If it were to happen in Israel I imagine that it would be cut down to less than 30 minutes. There are camera crews in Tel Aviv that within moments of such a great apparition as Jesus' standing in the clouds, could have their cameras zoomed in and patched into the NBC or ABC feed to broadcast such a thing all over the world.

Here's a good example. Find out how long after the first plane went into the world trade center before people all over the world were watching the destruction. TVs were tuned in in hospitals, schools, homes and offices all over the world. There would certainly be very few places that the destruction of the world trade centers was not being watched by everyone. Now consider that if he were to tarry just 10 more years it is likely that everyone will see on TV, cellphone video, the internet, etc.

Here's what I know. The Scriptures say that every eye will see... I won't even pretend to know how, but I know it will happen. There is no doubt in my mind that that claim will be fulfilled just as it says.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Smidlee]

Inconsistencies in Answers in Genesis

The bible says that the earth is fixed, and that it has foundations. The sun goes around the earth, according to the bible. I believe that a lot of the bible is inspired by God, but not all of it. (I exclude the books of Daniel and Revelation) These verses seem to indicate that the earth is flat…

1. Dan. 4:10-11: "I saw ... a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof great. The tree grew ... and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth." The earth must be flat else the tree would not be visible to the ends of the earth.

this is like saying people must be flat because they are flat on my TV. Even though there wasn't no Televisions back then there were visions. Daniel made it very clear this was a vision. What seems to be flat in a vision doesn't mean it's flat in real life.

2. Matthew 4:8: "Again, the devil takes [Jesus] up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." Same argument, the Bible writers clearly state here that they believe that from a high enough mountain you could see the whole world.

Again the same thing. Just like television you can see around the world with visions.
Just because I can see an event on the other side of the planet doesn't suggest the world is flat.

3. Rev. 1:7: "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Same argument.

Revelation itself reads just like a television show. You see the camera switch back and forward between heaven and earth. Again they didn't have television just plain visions. The whole book of Revelation is a vision.
Notice in Matthew when Jesus comes some will be working in the field (daytime) while others are in bed (nighttime).

Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.

the sun and moon stood still is in reference to what/who???? the answer is "the eye of the beholder"
All motions has to have a reference point. When a cop pull you over and says you were running 70 mph in a 55mph zone it in reference to the ground. Now for someone standing on the moon you are going somewhere around 1,000 mph.

This is how language works. To get the true meaning of words you need to have some knowledge of the speaker or writer. When I tell my mother "I've got to run" she knows I going to be driving my car and not start running down the street.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Inconsistencies in Answers in Genesis

The bible says that the earth is fixed, and that it has foundations. The sun goes around the earth, according to the bible. ...

Well, I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
The creation is geocentric, and heaven was stretched out from the earth on day 2, and is named sha-maym, from a Hebrew root letter, "shin", that can be "two", and was depicted by the two front teeth sign in early writing; and waters/mayim.
The heavens were not named until they were stretched out from the earth on day two, and their name literally means between the divided or two, waters.
The "dry" did not appear out of water until the Creator commanded the waters below the heavens to be gathered together and the "dry" to appear. He named the gathered waters "seas" and the dry "eretz/earth".

The heavens circled the earth from the beginning of creation, and are forces which establish the earth. The forces are called "winds" and are the "nothing" upon which He hung the earth -the globe.
Enoch saw the pillars of earth as winds. These winds are electromagnetic forces, and the creation is electric from the beginning and is held together by these forces, which are currents in the heavens -and polarized forces.

You might like looking at the Thunderbolts website, for information on the electric universe. They are not Christian Bible believers, but they know the forces of creation are electro-magnetic.

The heavens and earth were created on day 1, but the water was a globe. the Hebrew word for world is tebel, a globe, from a root meaning "to swell". We get words like bulbous, bulb, ball, from the Hebrew etymons; global is from the same. In the DSS manuscripts, the War scrolls, on the final battle, a translation to English I have translates tebel as globe, for the last battle will "span the globe".

Enoch 18 ;
18 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation and the firm foundations of the earth. 2And I saw the cornerstone of the earth: I saw the four winds which bear the earth and the firmament of the heaven. 3And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven. 4I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and all the stars to their setting. 5I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths of the angels.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Inconsistencies in Answers in Genesis

The bible says that the earth is fixed, and that it has foundations.

You might like -
http://www.christianforums.com/t7493818/