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Incest and Abortions

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Bombila

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I think you need to separate the 'misconceptions about incest' part. One can be perfectly aware of the science, psychology, etc. surrounding incest and still be hypocritical about abortion.

It is a hypocritical position, IMO. Either abortion is murder, in which case why would rape or incest make it right, or abortion is legitimately a woman's choice regardless of her relationship with the inseminator. I support the second option, myself.

Supporting abortion only in the case of rape or incest makes it clear that the proponent believes being pregnant is a punishment for sinful women and that their view has nothing to do with 'sanctity of life'.
 
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stan1980

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7th thread on abortion on the front page! Wooh!

Here are a few more questions...

Should abortions be compulsory for those not financially ready?
Should dogs be allowed to have abortions?
Should Hitler's mother have got an abortion if she had the benefit of hindsight?
Was it right to get the virgin Mary pregnant against her will, should she have had an abortion on principle?
 
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lawtonfogle

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I think you need to separate the 'misconceptions about incest' part. One can be perfectly aware of the science, psychology, etc. surrounding incest and still be hypocritical about abortion.

It is a hypocritical position, IMO. Either abortion is murder, in which case why would rape or incest make it right, or abortion is legitimately a woman's choice regardless of her relationship with the inseminator. I support the second option, myself.

Supporting abortion only in the case of rape or incest makes it clear that the proponent believes being pregnant is a punishment for sinful women and that their view has nothing to do with 'sanctity of life'.

Actually, there is one argument I have seen, valid argument that is, which works for rape, but this isn't actually abortion abortion overall, but about my statement that incest does not validate abortion in a case where it wouldn't have already been validated.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Well lets see there are 2 way to see this from my pro-choice viewpoint. When we are talking about incest I can only assume that we are talking about rape, maybe not violent but when a male relative has his way with a close female relative against her will. So you have 2 big issues here. You have just drained all but about a half an inch of water out of the gene pool and the chances that there will either be complications or severe birth defects to the child has just gone through the roof. Couple this with the fact that this (most likely) special needs child is going to be born to a woman (most likely girl, not woman) who will see her tormentor's face every time she looks at her child.

I don't see how any sane person could deny an abortion.
 
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wanderingone

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I am going to go ahead and claim that the view of abortion maybe being ok in the case of incest being an illogical view, mostly based on trying to be socially acceptable and misconceptions about incest.

All agree, or is anyone wanting to challenge this?

I think if you believe abortion is always wrong, or at least always wrong when the health of the mother is not at risk then believing it to be okay in the case of rape or incest would mean you don't believe your own notion that the potential life of the fetus takes precedence over the mother's wishes, emotional or social well being.
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On the other hand if we're talking about someone's opinions regarding legal limitations on abortion I don't really care when someone agrees it's okay or not okay, since I don't believe the general public should get a say on the decision.
 
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Bombila

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Well lets see there are 2 way to see this from my pro-choice viewpoint. When we are talking about incest I can only assume that we are talking about rape, maybe not violent but when a male relative has his way with a close female relative against her will. So you have 2 big issues here. You have just drained all but about a half an inch of water out of the gene pool and the chances that there will either be complications or severe birth defects to the child has just gone through the roof. Couple this with the fact that this (most likely) special needs child is going to be born to a woman (most likely girl, not woman) who will see her tormentor's face every time she looks at her child.

I don't see how any sane person could deny an abortion.

Actually, you are wrong. We mostly hear about incest when it is a case of an older male relative raping a younger female relative, but a good deal of incest occurs between consenting siblings.

You are also wrong regarding birth defects. Consider that most animal breeding includes breeding siblings and parent-offspring. Breeders are not looking to increase defects, although that does sometimes happen. For recessive 'bad genes' to be apparent in children of incestuous relationships, they have to be there in the first place. If there are deletorious recessive genes, then yes, incest makes it more likely they will manifest.

Note, it is entirely legal to marry one's first cousin in most places, and a first cousin in some cases may be almost as genetically close as a sibling. Particularly in small communities, it is common for siblings of one family to marry siblings of another family.

Scare stories about genetically damaged children of incest mostly come from isolated communities where a family has been practicing incest or limiting their gene pool for generations.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Well lets see there are 2 way to see this from my pro-choice viewpoint. When we are talking about incest I can only assume that we are talking about rape

And thus appears the first main misconception. When I say rape, I mean rape, as in, rape. If an act happens to be rape between family members, then I call it rape. When I speak about incest, I speak about a consenting relationship, one which isn't rape, between family members. While you may think such a thing could never happen, it does.
 
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Matthewj1985

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Actually, you are wrong. We mostly hear about incest when it is a case of an older male relative raping a younger female relative, but a good deal of incest occurs between consenting siblings.

I was just confirming that we were talking about rape and not consensual incest.

You are also wrong regarding birth defects. Consider that most animal breeding includes breeding siblings and parent-offspring. Breeders are not looking to increase defects, although that does sometimes happen. For recessive 'bad genes' to be apparent in children of incestuous relationships, they have to be there in the first place. If there are deletorious recessive genes, then yes, incest makes it more likely they will manifest.

I might well be wrong but there is a big difference between dogs and higher level primates.

Note, it is entirely legal to marry one's first cousin in most places, and a first cousin in some cases may be almost as genetically close as a sibling. Particularly in small communities, it is common for siblings of one family to marry siblings of another family.

I read an article the other day about various European countries actually taking their incest laws off the books. One story I think was about a father/daughter couple who had like 3 kids in Germany.

Scare stories about genetically damaged children of incest mostly come from isolated communities where a family has been practicing incest or limiting their gene pool for generations.

See almost any royal family up until WWI?
 
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flicka

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It is a hypocritical position, IMO. Either abortion is murder, in which case why would rape or incest make it right, or abortion is legitimately a woman's choice regardless of her relationship with the inseminator. I support the second option, myself.

Supporting abortion only in the case of rape or incest makes it clear that the proponent believes being pregnant is a punishment for sinful women and that their view has nothing to do with 'sanctity of life'.

This is true. It's my main "bullet point" when debating abortion IRL. Most people don't realize they are actually pro-choice. They just want to be able to choose the circumstances for other people.
 
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Bombila

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I was just confirming that we were talking about rape and not consensual incest.



I might well be wrong but there is a big difference between dogs and higher level primates.



I read an article the other day about various European countries actually taking their incest laws off the books. One story I think was about a father/daughter couple who had like 3 kids in Germany.



See almost any royal family up until WWI?

Okay. But I'll bet the OP was considering all incest.

What makes you think that? Recessive and dominant genes act the same regardless of what mammal we're talking about. In terms of breeding, the same considerations and precautions apply whether it's dogs, horses, cattle, gorillas or humans (if one were specifically breeding humans).

Yes, I've read articles about that couple. We understand genetics better now than throughout social history, and many genetic problems can be predicted and screened for, so except for the 'ick' factor and the question of coercion/rape, it's hard to defend laws against incest.

Royals are often pointed to in conversations like this, for good reason. But in reality they were no more genetically inbred than many small populations throughout the world. If you look at small island populations anywhere, inbreeding was inevitable.

My family, for example, both maternal and paternal lineages stem from a small island off Scotland in the 1850s. Like many small islands there, most people did not travel much and usually married someone in the community, and since that was the case for many generations, of course they were all genetically close - small gene pool. Four of those families immigrated here, settled in an isolated farming community, and continued as usual, with an even smaller gene pool. When I look at my genealogy, there are multiple relationships between any two people - they will be second cousins, fourth cousins, third cousins, depending on which ancestor you draw the line down from.

There are a few genetic consequences (inherited heart problems, tendency to diabetes) which are being diluted by the current generations, who have a much bigger gene pool to choose from. But it is further proof that you cannot just assume that inbreeding will inevitably end in idiot or disfunctional offspring.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Okay. But I'll bet the OP was considering all incest.

What makes you think that? Recessive and dominant genes act the same regardless of what mammal we're talking about. In terms of breeding, the same considerations and precautions apply whether it's dogs, horses, cattle, gorillas or humans (if one were specifically breeding humans).

Yes, I've read articles about that couple. We understand genetics better now than throughout social history, and many genetic problems can be predicted and screened for, so except for the 'ick' factor and the question of coercion/rape, it's hard to defend laws against incest.

Royals are often pointed to in conversations like this, for good reason. But in reality they were no more genetically inbred than many small populations throughout the world. If you look at small island populations anywhere, inbreeding was inevitable.

My family, for example, both maternal and paternal lineages stem from a small island off Scotland in the 1850s. Like many small islands there, most people did not travel much and usually married someone in the community, and since that was the case for many generations, of course they were all genetically close - small gene pool. Four of those families immigrated here, settled in an isolated farming community, and continued as usual, with an even smaller gene pool. When I look at my genealogy, there are multiple relationships between any two people - they will be second cousins, fourth cousins, third cousins, depending on which ancestor you draw the line down from.

There are a few genetic consequences (inherited heart problems, tendency to diabetes) which are being diluted by the current generations, who have a much bigger gene pool to choose from. But it is further proof that you cannot just assume that inbreeding will inevitably end in idiot or disfunctional offspring.

Actually, assuming an even spread of good and bad genes, inbreeding can help any one offspring be much better, so it is possible for inbreeding to be a good thing... and if we were to limit the reproduction of any 'bad genes', aka humans with defects (which there are other much more moral arguments for doing this same thing, but that is another topic), then we would result in incest being a good thing. But this is also off topic. What I was saying when I said incest was all forms of incest that aren't covered by rape (because rape was already mentioned in the disclaimer). Is there any reason for a non-rape incest to justify abortion?
 
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Bombila

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Is there any reason for a non-rape incest to justify abortion?

Short answer: no.

Abortion is either a woman's decision to make concerning her own body (my position), or no abortion is justifiable, with the possible exception of those pregnancies where the mother's life is threatened by continuing the pregnancy.
 
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Sycophant

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The hypocrisy of the 'Abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape or incest' argument has always astounded me.

They are offered up by the same people who talk about the potential of aborted life, and the innocence of unborn children. Yet these things aren't affected by the circumstances of conception. Single-occurrences of incest are no more likely to result in birth defects than a regular conception, only in multiple-generational incestuous relationships does the risk of birth defects become very high.

The idea of exceptions for those circumstances does seem to make it very clear that there is no consistency in the arguments made by the anti-abortion crowd, and points toward the idea of pregnancy as a punishment for daring to have sex.
 
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